1 00:00:36,417 --> 00:00:38,291 (speaking German) 2 00:00:45,667 --> 00:00:47,792 Nein! 3 00:00:47,792 --> 00:00:50,917 Geoffrey Lawrence: That will be entered as a plea of not guilty. 4 00:00:50,917 --> 00:00:53,542 You see, I proceed from the assumption 5 00:00:53,542 --> 00:00:56,792 that every human being is guilty. 6 00:00:58,417 --> 00:00:59,458 I-- 7 00:00:59,458 --> 00:01:02,792 By degree, by association, by being human, 8 00:01:02,792 --> 00:01:04,291 if they did it here, 9 00:01:04,291 --> 00:01:07,583 it is not that it could not happen in America. 10 00:01:07,583 --> 00:01:10,125 It is not that it could not happen elsewhere. 11 00:01:10,125 --> 00:01:13,000 Male News Reporter: What happened here was an accident of war. 12 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,625 Somebody made a mistake. 13 00:01:14,625 --> 00:01:17,083 (baby whimpering) 14 00:01:17,083 --> 00:01:20,250 (speaking foreign language) 15 00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:24,291 Arthur Lord, NBC News, on Highway 1. 16 00:01:25,458 --> 00:01:27,166 (speaking French) 17 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,959 There were many men who went to Vietnam 'cause they believed in it, 18 00:02:07,959 --> 00:02:10,583 like I believed in it, and went over there. 19 00:02:10,583 --> 00:02:12,708 And there were many men who went to Canada 20 00:02:12,708 --> 00:02:16,375 because they believed that it was immoral. 21 00:02:16,375 --> 00:02:18,208 I think that I like 22 00:02:18,208 --> 00:02:21,375 those men who went to Vietnam 'cause they believed, 23 00:02:21,375 --> 00:02:23,917 and those men who went to Canada because they believed. 24 00:02:23,917 --> 00:02:25,583 (speaking French) 25 00:03:01,917 --> 00:03:03,542 (man speaks French) 26 00:03:08,667 --> 00:03:11,333 I knew I was, I was right in what I was doing. 27 00:03:11,333 --> 00:03:13,917 I think all the deserters did. 28 00:03:13,917 --> 00:03:16,750 That might not have been 29 00:03:16,750 --> 00:03:19,291 in the forefront of our mind, exactly what it was-- 30 00:03:19,291 --> 00:03:22,166 principles like Nuremberg. 31 00:03:22,166 --> 00:03:25,333 But after hearing about the war 32 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:26,917 or, in my case, after seeing it, 33 00:03:26,917 --> 00:03:29,375 I knew what I was doing was correct. 34 00:03:29,375 --> 00:03:31,667 Most of these things are not done by monsters. 35 00:03:31,667 --> 00:03:33,625 They're done by very ordinary people, 36 00:03:33,625 --> 00:03:35,208 people very much like you and me. 37 00:03:35,208 --> 00:03:38,125 These things are results of pressures and circumstances 38 00:03:38,125 --> 00:03:41,125 to which human frailty succumbs, 39 00:03:41,125 --> 00:03:42,959 and a large part of it isn't really due 40 00:03:42,959 --> 00:03:45,542 to any intrinsic sadism or desire to inflict pain. 41 00:03:45,542 --> 00:03:50,542 It's... It's the degeneration of standards under pressures-- 42 00:03:50,542 --> 00:03:54,959 boredom, fear, other influences of this kind. 43 00:03:54,959 --> 00:03:57,959 Well, I guess that I did think before that, uh, 44 00:03:57,959 --> 00:04:00,625 that Americans in their history had been 45 00:04:00,625 --> 00:04:03,250 somewhat more immune to these pressures 46 00:04:03,250 --> 00:04:05,625 and that the historical record was a better one 47 00:04:05,625 --> 00:04:08,417 and the moral standards we tried to attain 48 00:04:08,417 --> 00:04:11,000 in peace and war were higher. 49 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,417 I guess I still think we try to attain the higher values. 50 00:04:14,417 --> 00:04:17,166 But, uh, yes-- Ophuls: And succeeded sometimes. 51 00:04:17,166 --> 00:04:21,208 And succeed sometimes. Succeed less often, I guess, than I thought before. 52 00:04:22,917 --> 00:04:25,083 I didn't want to see the museum at Dachau. 53 00:04:25,083 --> 00:04:26,834 Ophuls: Why not? 54 00:04:26,834 --> 00:04:29,333 I had, uh... 55 00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:30,875 I guess some of it's from my father. 56 00:04:30,875 --> 00:04:34,291 He never talked about, uh, about World War II very much, 57 00:04:34,291 --> 00:04:38,166 and I didn't have the personal desire to see 58 00:04:38,166 --> 00:04:40,375 where, uh... 59 00:04:40,375 --> 00:04:43,625 a number of thousands of Jews were destroyed. 60 00:04:43,625 --> 00:04:46,125 Uh, no, I didn't want to see pictures of it. 61 00:04:46,125 --> 00:04:48,500 I had no, no desire to see that. 62 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:50,166 (speaking German) 63 00:04:51,667 --> 00:04:53,083 (Ophuls speaking German) 64 00:04:54,375 --> 00:04:57,542 (Ophuls speaking) 65 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,083 (Ophuls speaks German) 66 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,750 (piano playing simple melody) 67 00:05:20,375 --> 00:05:22,375 ♪ ♪ 68 00:05:23,458 --> 00:05:26,834 (woman speaking French) 69 00:05:41,041 --> 00:05:43,083 (speaking French) 70 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:12,250 (piano playing simple melody) 71 00:06:18,583 --> 00:06:21,083 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking French) 72 00:06:25,458 --> 00:06:29,250 Menuhin: One of the, uh, clearest recollections I have 73 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,291 is of a little gypsy child, 74 00:06:32,291 --> 00:06:35,625 uh, whom I wish now I had, I had, uh... 75 00:06:35,625 --> 00:06:38,166 I had taken and adopted. 76 00:06:38,166 --> 00:06:40,417 I don't know what ever happened to... 77 00:06:40,417 --> 00:06:44,125 little boy, I think, of five or so, but-- 78 00:06:44,125 --> 00:06:45,792 Ophuls: What struck you about him in particular? 79 00:06:45,792 --> 00:06:47,583 Oh, simply because he was a gypsy child, 80 00:06:47,583 --> 00:06:50,917 and I knew he'd probably play the violin if he were given half a chance. 81 00:06:50,917 --> 00:06:53,583 (instruments tuning) (muscians chattering loudly) 82 00:07:10,417 --> 00:07:13,500 (tuning continuing) (loud chattering continuing) 83 00:07:27,917 --> 00:07:30,000 (conductor claps hands) 84 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,375 (instruments stop) 85 00:07:31,375 --> 00:07:32,667 (silence) 86 00:07:37,166 --> 00:07:40,875 (men speaking German) 87 00:07:43,333 --> 00:07:46,708 (speaking German) 88 00:07:59,166 --> 00:08:05,542 The privilege of opening the first trial in history 89 00:08:05,542 --> 00:08:10,000 for crimes against the peace of the world 90 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,542 imposes a grave responsibility. 91 00:08:12,542 --> 00:08:17,375 The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish 92 00:08:17,375 --> 00:08:22,208 have been so calculated, so malignant and so devastating 93 00:08:22,208 --> 00:08:26,583 that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored 94 00:08:26,583 --> 00:08:30,542 because it cannot survive their being repeated. 95 00:08:30,542 --> 00:08:33,458 (laughter, chatter) 96 00:08:33,458 --> 00:08:35,250 (speaking in German) 97 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,542 Ophuls: No, I... I think it's fine. 98 00:08:43,542 --> 00:08:45,792 It's really-- It's a little narrow here. 99 00:08:45,792 --> 00:08:48,583 And too wide. And a little large here. 100 00:08:48,583 --> 00:08:50,708 But... But it's roomy. 101 00:08:50,708 --> 00:08:52,542 (Ophuls speaks German) 102 00:08:56,583 --> 00:09:00,417 (woman speaking German) 103 00:09:05,458 --> 00:09:06,500 (speaking German) 104 00:09:07,959 --> 00:09:11,125 (chatting in German) 105 00:09:11,125 --> 00:09:15,708 Ophuls: Reginchen, how do you feel about my making this film? 106 00:09:15,708 --> 00:09:20,458 I think I was dragging around that skeleton in the closet 107 00:09:20,458 --> 00:09:24,458 for all our... all the time of our marriage. 108 00:09:24,458 --> 00:09:27,291 And I think-- I hope we will get over it. 109 00:09:27,291 --> 00:09:30,125 (Regine speaking German) 110 00:09:31,959 --> 00:09:34,083 (Ophuls speaking German) 111 00:09:34,083 --> 00:09:35,583 (speaking German) 112 00:09:53,458 --> 00:09:56,500 (Ophuls speaking German) 113 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:58,166 (sighs) 114 00:10:04,417 --> 00:10:06,000 (in German) Because... 115 00:10:25,834 --> 00:10:28,792 (Ophuls speaks German) 116 00:10:28,792 --> 00:10:31,000 (Regine speaking German) 117 00:10:48,250 --> 00:10:50,000 ♪ ♪ 118 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:02,708 (man narrating in German) 119 00:11:16,875 --> 00:11:20,708 (speaking German) 120 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:44,792 Man: They needed a psychologist 121 00:11:44,792 --> 00:11:46,750 who had been in military intelligence 122 00:11:46,750 --> 00:11:48,542 and, uh, I was assigned. 123 00:11:48,542 --> 00:11:52,166 Ophuls: You were a captain in the American Army and you're a Jew. 124 00:11:52,166 --> 00:11:56,542 I mean, were there any problems in establishing authority? 125 00:11:56,542 --> 00:11:58,542 Gilbert (clears throat): Of course, as you know, 126 00:11:58,542 --> 00:12:00,959 the Germans are very rank-conscious. Ophuls: Yes. 127 00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:03,542 And, uh, that, as a matter of fact, proved handy 128 00:12:03,542 --> 00:12:06,792 because I was able to administer IQ tests simply by telling them, 129 00:12:06,792 --> 00:12:08,875 "I have orders. You will now take an IQ test," 130 00:12:08,875 --> 00:12:11,834 and they sat down very meekly and took IQ tests. 131 00:12:11,834 --> 00:12:13,667 If I simply said that, "I'm a psychologist, 132 00:12:13,667 --> 00:12:17,291 and I'd like to know how intelligent you war criminals are," 133 00:12:17,291 --> 00:12:19,250 I obviously wouldn't have gotten anywhere. 134 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:22,542 When the trial started, if you recall the grim picture 135 00:12:22,542 --> 00:12:26,291 of the Nazi war criminals in the prisoners' dock, 136 00:12:26,291 --> 00:12:29,458 and they were leaning into each other and and mumbling something. 137 00:12:29,458 --> 00:12:31,417 What they were talking about was, 138 00:12:31,417 --> 00:12:34,166 "What did you get on that professor's IQ test?" 139 00:12:34,166 --> 00:12:36,417 Uh, "How many digits did you remember?" 140 00:12:36,417 --> 00:12:38,166 "I got eight forward and six backwards." 141 00:12:38,166 --> 00:12:42,166 And this is what they were arguing about at the beginning of the war crimes trial. 142 00:12:42,166 --> 00:12:43,875 (Kempner speaking German) 143 00:13:02,834 --> 00:13:04,708 (Ophuls speaks German) 144 00:13:05,875 --> 00:13:09,333 Marshal: Attention! The Tribunal will now enter. 145 00:13:24,208 --> 00:13:30,333 There is laid upon everybody who takes any part in this trial, 146 00:13:30,333 --> 00:13:36,417 a solemn responsibility to discharge their duties with justice. 147 00:13:36,417 --> 00:13:38,750 The indictment shall now be read. 148 00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:40,875 This is rather a unique document. 149 00:13:40,875 --> 00:13:45,000 The original indictment of the Nuremberg trial. Ophuls: Hmm. 150 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,583 With the... 151 00:13:46,583 --> 00:13:49,875 ...handwritten reactions of each of the defendants That's interesting. 152 00:13:49,875 --> 00:13:52,166 to this document after they received it. 153 00:13:53,125 --> 00:13:56,208 Sidney Alderman: Hermann Wilhelm Goering, 154 00:13:56,208 --> 00:13:58,667 Rudolf Hess... 155 00:13:58,667 --> 00:14:03,375 Goering, who as you might expect, was quite cynical about it, wrote... 156 00:14:03,375 --> 00:14:05,750 (speaking German) 157 00:14:08,917 --> 00:14:13,333 Uh, Rudolf Hess, as you recall, had this problem of amnesia. 158 00:14:13,333 --> 00:14:16,291 And all he wrote was, "I can't remember." 159 00:14:16,291 --> 00:14:17,458 He wrote that in English. 160 00:14:17,458 --> 00:14:19,417 Alderman: Joachim von Ribbentrop... 161 00:14:19,417 --> 00:14:21,417 Gilbert: Ribbentrop wrote that, 162 00:14:21,417 --> 00:14:24,667 "The indictment is directed against the wrong people." 163 00:14:24,667 --> 00:14:28,375 And what he meant by that was that Hitler should have been indicted, 164 00:14:28,375 --> 00:14:30,917 but he didn't dare put that down in writing, 165 00:14:30,917 --> 00:14:32,625 because heaven knows where Hitler was, 166 00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:34,083 and he was still afraid of him. 167 00:14:34,083 --> 00:14:37,417 You had Doenitz, who was, uh, Hitler's final successor 168 00:14:37,417 --> 00:14:41,583 as fuhrer for the last few days of the Nazi Reich, uh, wrote... 169 00:14:42,959 --> 00:14:45,125 (Gilbert reading out loud German) 170 00:14:48,125 --> 00:14:51,250 "Typical American humor. Karl Doenitz." 171 00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:53,625 (speaking German) 172 00:15:20,083 --> 00:15:24,500 Gilbert: Uh, Albert Speer had a rather different reaction. 173 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:27,583 He said... (speaking German) 174 00:15:27,583 --> 00:15:29,708 That is, "The trial is necessary." 175 00:15:29,708 --> 00:15:32,041 (speaking German) 176 00:15:34,667 --> 00:15:37,000 (Ophuls speaking German) 177 00:15:41,667 --> 00:15:44,208 (speaking German) 178 00:15:46,333 --> 00:15:47,792 (Ophuls speaks) 179 00:15:52,291 --> 00:15:54,166 (Ophuls speaks) 180 00:16:07,875 --> 00:16:11,333 The kind of thing that Speer spoke of really established 181 00:16:11,333 --> 00:16:14,583 a realm of responsibility for everyone in that system, 182 00:16:14,583 --> 00:16:17,166 uh, potentially, from top to bottom. 183 00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:20,875 And that had to do with the element of guilty knowledge, 184 00:16:20,875 --> 00:16:23,625 or the potential for gaining knowledge. 185 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:25,875 (Ophuls speaking German) 186 00:16:42,041 --> 00:16:45,000 "That the shooting of uniformed prisoners 187 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,583 "must be carried out even after 188 00:16:48,583 --> 00:16:51,208 "they have surrendered voluntarily, 189 00:16:51,208 --> 00:16:53,583 and asked for pardon." 190 00:16:55,417 --> 00:16:57,417 The next pa-- Do you see that? 191 00:16:57,417 --> 00:16:59,375 (Doenitz speaking German) 192 00:16:59,375 --> 00:17:03,125 Maxwell-Fyfe: Do you agree that that is a reason 193 00:17:03,125 --> 00:17:05,917 for giving top secrecy to this document? 194 00:17:16,375 --> 00:17:21,375 Maxwell-Fyfe: You were commander-in-chief of the German navy. 195 00:17:21,375 --> 00:17:25,458 Do you say that you're not able to answer this question? 196 00:17:25,458 --> 00:17:29,125 Now, you have this final opportunity of answering that question. 197 00:17:29,125 --> 00:17:31,792 Will you answer it or won't you? 198 00:17:31,792 --> 00:17:32,959 (speaking German) 199 00:17:39,458 --> 00:17:41,417 (Ophuls speaking German) 200 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,125 Ophuls: Ja. 201 00:18:17,625 --> 00:18:19,542 (Ophuls speaks) 202 00:18:22,125 --> 00:18:24,500 (Ophuls speaks) 203 00:18:27,333 --> 00:18:29,667 (men singing in German) 204 00:19:00,291 --> 00:19:02,333 (speaking in German) 205 00:19:30,917 --> 00:19:32,875 (Speer speaking in German) 206 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,917 Taylor: "...even if they are, to all appearances, 207 00:19:43,917 --> 00:19:47,750 "soldiers in uniform, whether armed or unarmed, 208 00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:49,458 are to be slaughtered to the last man." 209 00:19:49,458 --> 00:19:55,083 This order was issued by OKW in 12 copies. 210 00:19:56,583 --> 00:19:58,667 And the distribution, 211 00:19:58,667 --> 00:20:01,834 shown on the second page, 212 00:20:01,834 --> 00:20:05,500 included the three supreme commands: 213 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:10,166 army, sea and air, and the principal field commands. 214 00:20:10,166 --> 00:20:11,458 (speaking German) 215 00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:28,875 (mutters) 216 00:20:28,875 --> 00:20:31,458 (Ophuls speaking German) 217 00:20:44,083 --> 00:20:47,250 (Ophuls speaks) 218 00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:10,708 (speaking German) 219 00:21:38,959 --> 00:21:42,417 (Ophuls speaks) 220 00:21:49,625 --> 00:21:52,083 (speaking German) 221 00:22:08,583 --> 00:22:11,458 E.R. Kellogg: These are the locations of the largest concentration 222 00:22:11,458 --> 00:22:14,291 and prison camps maintained throughout Germany 223 00:22:14,291 --> 00:22:16,959 and occupied Europe under the Nazi regime. 224 00:22:16,959 --> 00:22:19,708 Male Narrator: As soon as our troops arrived, arrangements were made 225 00:22:19,708 --> 00:22:22,500 to remove these people from the miserable surroundings. 226 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:24,542 Nazis who formerly maltreated them 227 00:22:24,542 --> 00:22:27,250 are forced to help look after the patients. 228 00:22:29,792 --> 00:22:33,708 The staff of German nurses is also forced to attend the victims. 229 00:22:33,708 --> 00:22:37,375 The women are able to smile for the first time in years. 230 00:22:38,667 --> 00:22:41,333 Ophuls: Dr. Gilbert, after the showing 231 00:22:41,333 --> 00:22:45,708 of the concentration camp film in the Tribunal, 232 00:22:45,708 --> 00:22:49,333 you went to their cells the same evening. Yes. 233 00:22:49,333 --> 00:22:54,917 It was surprising in that the reactions went from one end of the spectrum, 234 00:22:54,917 --> 00:22:58,667 from apparent indifference, to the most violent kind of, 235 00:22:58,667 --> 00:23:02,125 uh, guilt-laden self-recrimination. 236 00:23:02,125 --> 00:23:05,083 Doenitz was extremely indignant. 237 00:23:05,083 --> 00:23:09,000 He, he thought it was a crime 238 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,792 to expose him to witnessing the film, even, 239 00:23:11,792 --> 00:23:14,875 because he as a naval officer had nothing to do with atrocities. 240 00:23:14,875 --> 00:23:18,583 (Ophuls speaking German) 241 00:23:18,583 --> 00:23:20,291 (speaking German) 242 00:23:24,792 --> 00:23:27,083 (Ophuls speaking German) 243 00:24:13,208 --> 00:24:14,542 (Ophuls speaks German) 244 00:24:21,041 --> 00:24:22,834 (speaking German) 245 00:24:54,792 --> 00:24:56,708 (Ophuls speaking German) 246 00:25:28,333 --> 00:25:30,208 (Ophuls speaking German) 247 00:25:59,792 --> 00:26:01,750 (speaking German) 248 00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:21,166 (cheering) 249 00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:26,542 (Speer speaking German) 250 00:27:06,667 --> 00:27:07,834 (speaking German) 251 00:28:05,834 --> 00:28:07,041 (speaking German) 252 00:29:04,625 --> 00:29:05,834 (speaking German) 253 00:29:30,834 --> 00:29:33,959 Well, to begin with, Doenitz was about the least unpolitical of the bunch, 254 00:29:33,959 --> 00:29:38,667 and that probably is why Hitler named him as his successor when Hitler committed suicide. 255 00:29:38,667 --> 00:29:41,834 Uh, but no, this, uh, this is really, uh, utter rubbish. 256 00:29:41,834 --> 00:29:47,875 Frank Wallis: The Nazi conspirators adopted and publicized 257 00:29:47,875 --> 00:29:53,542 a program of ruthless persecution of Jews. 258 00:29:53,542 --> 00:29:59,375 We have no accurate estimate of how many persons died in these concentration camps, 259 00:29:59,375 --> 00:30:01,625 and perhaps none can ever be made. 260 00:30:01,625 --> 00:30:07,583 The Nazi conspirators were generally meticulous record keepers, 261 00:30:07,583 --> 00:30:10,750 but the records which they kept about concentration camps 262 00:30:10,750 --> 00:30:14,208 appear to have been quite incomplete. 263 00:30:14,208 --> 00:30:17,208 Perhaps the character of the records resulted 264 00:30:17,208 --> 00:30:19,375 from the indifference, 265 00:30:19,375 --> 00:30:22,542 uh, which the Nazis felt for the lives of their victims. 266 00:30:22,542 --> 00:30:27,375 But occasionally, we find a death book or a set of index cards. 267 00:30:27,375 --> 00:30:28,708 For the most part, 268 00:30:28,708 --> 00:30:31,208 the victims faded into an unrecorded death. 269 00:30:31,208 --> 00:30:33,333 Ophuls: Regine, have the children seen the film? 270 00:30:33,333 --> 00:30:37,041 How old do you have to be to see the film, the concentration camp? 271 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,333 Forty-five. 272 00:30:40,333 --> 00:30:43,333 Ophuls: So don't you think Catherine can see the film? 273 00:30:43,333 --> 00:30:48,750 I don't think she should. I, uh-- Well, she could, and, and, uh... 274 00:30:49,959 --> 00:30:51,583 Of course she could. 275 00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:55,125 (Regine speaking German) 276 00:30:59,917 --> 00:31:00,917 Ophuls: Hmm. 277 00:31:00,917 --> 00:31:03,458 (Catherine speaking German) 278 00:31:20,625 --> 00:31:22,625 (Regine speaking German) 279 00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:33,291 Ophuls: Regine, what kind of picture would you like me to make 280 00:31:33,291 --> 00:31:35,542 for my 47th birthday? 281 00:31:35,542 --> 00:31:37,291 (Regine chuckles) 282 00:31:38,333 --> 00:31:42,041 A Lubitsch film, or something like that. 283 00:31:42,041 --> 00:31:43,917 Ophuls: Something the children can see? 284 00:31:43,917 --> 00:31:48,458 Or, uh, My Fair Lady all over again. 285 00:31:48,458 --> 00:31:51,542 (record playing) (train whistle blows) 286 00:31:51,542 --> 00:31:54,500 ♪ ♪ 287 00:31:58,083 --> 00:32:00,542 India Adams: ♪ I see a new sun ♪ 288 00:32:00,542 --> 00:32:02,917 ♪ Up in a new sky ♪ 289 00:32:02,917 --> 00:32:08,125 ♪ And my whole horizon has reached a new high ♪ 290 00:32:08,125 --> 00:32:13,000 ♪ Yesterday, my heart sang a blue song ♪ 291 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,750 ♪ But today, hear it hum a cheery new song ♪ 292 00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:22,667 I dreamed a new dream, I saw a new face ♪ 293 00:32:22,667 --> 00:32:27,792 ♪ And I'm spreading sunshine all over the place ♪ 294 00:32:27,792 --> 00:32:33,583 ♪ With a new point of view, here's what greets my eye ♪ 295 00:32:33,583 --> 00:32:35,792 ♪ New love ♪ ♪ New love ♪ 296 00:32:35,792 --> 00:32:37,792 ♪ New luck ♪ ♪ New luck ♪ 297 00:32:37,792 --> 00:32:43,000 ♪ New sun ♪ ♪ And there's a new sun ♪ 298 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,667 ♪ In the sky ♪ 299 00:32:47,667 --> 00:32:50,500 ♪ ♪ 300 00:32:54,125 --> 00:32:56,875 ♪ ♪ 301 00:32:56,875 --> 00:33:01,875 Jack Buchanan, Fred Astaire: ♪ I guess I'll have to change my plan ♪ 302 00:33:01,875 --> 00:33:06,708 ♪ I should've realized there'd be another man ♪ 303 00:33:06,708 --> 00:33:11,542 ♪ I overlooked that point completely ♪ 304 00:33:11,542 --> 00:33:16,291 ♪ Until the big affair began ♪ 305 00:33:16,291 --> 00:33:20,959 ♪ Before I knew where I was at ♪ 306 00:33:20,959 --> 00:33:25,834 ♪ I found myself up on the shelf, and that was that ♪ 307 00:33:25,834 --> 00:33:31,667 ♪ I tried to reach the moon, but when I got there ♪ 308 00:33:31,667 --> 00:33:35,208 ♪ All that I could get was the air ♪ 309 00:33:35,208 --> 00:33:39,917 ♪ My feet are back upon the ground ♪ 310 00:33:39,917 --> 00:33:45,166 ♪ I've lost the one girl I found ♪ 311 00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:47,750 ♪ ♪ 312 00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:53,917 Ophuls: This is really very beautiful country, Schleswig-Holstein. 313 00:33:53,917 --> 00:33:55,542 It's funny about Nazis in Germany, 314 00:33:55,542 --> 00:33:59,041 they always seem to choose the loveliest spots to live in. 315 00:33:59,041 --> 00:34:01,583 We're coming into Stocksee now, which is the village 316 00:34:01,583 --> 00:34:04,959 where the concentration camp doctor Oberheuser lived. 317 00:34:04,959 --> 00:34:08,959 She practiced here for years after she got out of prison. 318 00:34:08,959 --> 00:34:12,125 ♪ ♪ 319 00:34:23,083 --> 00:34:25,792 (greetings in German) 320 00:34:25,792 --> 00:34:27,625 (Ophuls speaking) 321 00:34:31,041 --> 00:34:32,583 (Ophul speaks German) 322 00:34:36,458 --> 00:34:39,083 Ophuls: Uh-huh. (speaking German) 323 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,125 Ophuls: Ja. 324 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:52,875 (Ophuls speaking) 325 00:34:52,875 --> 00:34:53,959 (speaking German) 326 00:34:53,959 --> 00:34:55,750 (Ophuls speaks) 327 00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:57,000 Nein. Nein. 328 00:34:59,917 --> 00:35:01,959 Danke schoen. 329 00:35:01,959 --> 00:35:03,166 Danke. 330 00:35:03,166 --> 00:35:07,500 Ophuls: Nuremberg, November 21, 1946. 331 00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,083 Military Tribunal Number One. 332 00:35:10,083 --> 00:35:13,959 United States of America v. Karl Brandt, and others, 333 00:35:13,959 --> 00:35:17,291 better known as the "Medical Case." 334 00:35:17,291 --> 00:35:20,208 ...and answer the questions which I shall propound to him. 335 00:35:20,208 --> 00:35:23,625 Walter Beals: Is your name Hertha Oberheuser? 336 00:35:23,625 --> 00:35:25,583 Ja wohl. 337 00:35:25,583 --> 00:35:28,208 Beals: Have you received and have you had an opportunity 338 00:35:28,208 --> 00:35:30,208 to read the indictment filed against you? 339 00:35:30,208 --> 00:35:31,875 Ja wohl. 340 00:35:31,875 --> 00:35:34,875 Beals: Have you entered your plea of "not guilty" to this indictment, 341 00:35:34,875 --> 00:35:37,458 and do you now plead "not guilty" to this indictment? 342 00:35:37,458 --> 00:35:38,834 (speaking German) 343 00:35:39,708 --> 00:35:41,417 Beals: You may be seated. 344 00:35:41,417 --> 00:35:43,208 Ophuls: Dr. Hertha Oberheuser was 345 00:35:43,208 --> 00:35:46,375 a young and attractive woman in 1946. 346 00:35:46,375 --> 00:35:48,083 She was accused of having tortured 347 00:35:48,083 --> 00:35:51,250 dozens of concentration camp inmates, 348 00:35:51,250 --> 00:35:54,166 of having artificially infected wounds, 349 00:35:54,166 --> 00:35:56,708 of having administered lethal injection. 350 00:36:00,667 --> 00:36:03,208 (Ophuls speaking German) 351 00:36:03,208 --> 00:36:04,875 (speaking German) 352 00:36:04,875 --> 00:36:06,750 (Ophuls speaks) Ja. 353 00:36:10,583 --> 00:36:12,375 Ja. Ja? 354 00:36:17,792 --> 00:36:18,959 Uh-huh. 355 00:36:19,875 --> 00:36:22,875 (Ophuls speaking German) 356 00:36:27,708 --> 00:36:29,125 Uh-huh, uh-huh. 357 00:36:39,917 --> 00:36:41,583 Ja. 358 00:36:41,583 --> 00:36:43,917 (Ophuls speaks) 359 00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:47,583 Ja. 360 00:36:53,792 --> 00:36:55,458 Ja. 361 00:37:18,083 --> 00:37:19,125 Ja. 362 00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:22,834 Danke sehr. Auf Wiedersehen. Bitte. 363 00:37:24,041 --> 00:37:25,834 (speaking German) 364 00:37:25,834 --> 00:37:28,417 Alexander Hardy: And in your affidavit, 365 00:37:28,417 --> 00:37:33,125 you admit that you gave five or six lethal injections. 366 00:37:33,125 --> 00:37:35,083 Is that correct? 367 00:37:35,083 --> 00:37:36,208 Nein. 368 00:37:37,667 --> 00:37:39,750 Hardy: Well, you gave injections, 369 00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:43,458 and after such injections the persons died, did they not? 370 00:37:43,458 --> 00:37:44,834 (speaking German) 371 00:37:59,208 --> 00:38:02,291 Hardy: And this medical aid resulted in death, did it not? 372 00:38:03,667 --> 00:38:04,875 Did you hear that? 373 00:38:04,875 --> 00:38:07,333 (translator speaking in German) 374 00:38:07,333 --> 00:38:08,458 Nein. 375 00:38:10,125 --> 00:38:14,500 I said, "And this medical aid resulted in death, did it not?" 376 00:38:21,041 --> 00:38:26,375 Hardy: Miss Oberheuser, were you ever given any awards or medals? 377 00:38:33,333 --> 00:38:36,083 Hardy: And for what reason did you receive that medal? 378 00:38:36,083 --> 00:38:38,250 (Oberheuser speaks German) Translator: I don't know. 379 00:38:38,250 --> 00:38:40,208 Hardy: Was it for your participation 380 00:38:40,208 --> 00:38:42,917 in the sulfanilamide experiments? 381 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:51,417 Hardy: I have no further questions, Your Honor. 382 00:38:51,417 --> 00:38:54,083 Ophuls: The really interesting reaction, it seems to me, 383 00:38:54,083 --> 00:38:56,458 comes from her patients after the war. 384 00:38:56,458 --> 00:39:00,125 They did not abandon her, and the medical authorities of Schleswig-Holstein 385 00:39:00,125 --> 00:39:02,041 apparently saw nothing wrong. 386 00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:05,083 (Eugen Kogon speaking German) 387 00:39:27,417 --> 00:39:30,417 (man speaking German) (engine rumbling) 388 00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:33,083 (Ophuls speaking German) 389 00:39:33,083 --> 00:39:34,458 (man speaks) 390 00:39:38,959 --> 00:39:40,375 Ja. 391 00:39:40,375 --> 00:39:43,792 (Ophuls speaks) 392 00:39:44,792 --> 00:39:47,083 (speaking German) 393 00:39:50,375 --> 00:39:52,583 (speaking German) 394 00:39:56,583 --> 00:39:58,959 Ach so! 395 00:40:02,625 --> 00:40:03,917 (Ophuls speaks German) 396 00:40:07,959 --> 00:40:10,083 Ja? (speaks German) 397 00:40:14,458 --> 00:40:15,583 Ja? 398 00:40:18,417 --> 00:40:19,458 Ja. 399 00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:33,000 (Ophuls speaks) 400 00:40:35,208 --> 00:40:37,166 Ja, ja. 401 00:40:37,166 --> 00:40:39,000 (Ophuls speaks) 402 00:41:21,875 --> 00:41:25,000 (Lilian Harvey singing in German) 403 00:42:08,417 --> 00:42:09,708 (Ophuls speaking) 404 00:42:16,041 --> 00:42:17,125 Ja. 405 00:42:18,708 --> 00:42:20,959 (Ophuls speaking) 406 00:42:24,208 --> 00:42:25,625 Ja. 407 00:42:25,625 --> 00:42:27,875 Ja. 408 00:42:27,875 --> 00:42:30,083 (Bauer speaking German) 409 00:42:30,083 --> 00:42:32,625 (speaking German) 410 00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:35,667 (Ophuls speaking) 411 00:42:39,834 --> 00:42:41,625 Ja, ja. 412 00:42:51,333 --> 00:42:55,000 (Ophuls speaking) 413 00:42:57,417 --> 00:42:58,792 Nein. (laughs) 414 00:43:31,208 --> 00:43:33,500 Beals: Hertha Oberheuser, 415 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:37,125 Military Tribunal One has found and adjudged you guilty 416 00:43:37,125 --> 00:43:40,375 of war crimes and crimes against humanity. 417 00:43:40,375 --> 00:43:43,000 For your said crimes, Military Tribunal One 418 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,125 sentences you, Herta Oberheuser, 419 00:43:46,125 --> 00:43:49,542 to imprisonment for a term of 20 years. 420 00:43:49,542 --> 00:43:53,834 The officer of the guard will remove the defendant, Herta Oberheuser. 421 00:43:53,834 --> 00:43:57,041 (Ophuls speaking German) 422 00:44:04,083 --> 00:44:06,125 Oberheuser: Nein. Ophuls: Nein? 423 00:44:06,125 --> 00:44:08,375 (Oberheuser speaking German) 424 00:44:12,667 --> 00:44:14,250 (Ophuls speaking) 425 00:44:16,792 --> 00:44:20,250 (Oberheuser speaking) 426 00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:24,041 (Gophuls and Oberheuser speaking in German) 427 00:44:24,041 --> 00:44:26,458 (door closes) 428 00:44:26,458 --> 00:44:27,875 (speaking German) 429 00:44:33,834 --> 00:44:37,125 (speaking German) 430 00:44:41,458 --> 00:44:43,625 (Ophuls speaking German) 431 00:44:43,625 --> 00:44:45,708 (Alexander speaking) 432 00:45:17,542 --> 00:45:19,792 (Ophuls speaking) 433 00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:47,333 (speaking German) 434 00:45:59,250 --> 00:46:00,792 (speaking German) 435 00:46:46,625 --> 00:46:49,041 (Alexander Mitscherlich speaking German) 436 00:47:00,125 --> 00:47:04,041 (woman speaks German through intercom) (speaking German) 437 00:47:04,041 --> 00:47:05,542 (woman speaks) Ophuls: Ja. 438 00:47:05,542 --> 00:47:09,792 Taylor: In the important, but sinister typhus researches, 439 00:47:09,792 --> 00:47:13,417 the eminent Dr. Rose appeared for the Luftwaffe. 440 00:47:13,417 --> 00:47:16,708 Rose became a distinguished specialist in the fields 441 00:47:16,708 --> 00:47:20,041 of public health and tropical diseases. 442 00:47:20,959 --> 00:47:22,083 (coughs) 443 00:47:22,083 --> 00:47:24,792 (Ophuls speaking German) 444 00:47:24,792 --> 00:47:25,917 (speaking German) 445 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:36,583 Ophuls: Ja. 446 00:48:14,667 --> 00:48:17,500 Taylor: At Buchenwald, numerous healthy inmates 447 00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:20,625 were deliberately infected with spotted fever virus 448 00:48:20,625 --> 00:48:22,625 in order to keep the virus alive. 449 00:48:22,625 --> 00:48:25,542 Over 90 percent of the victims died as a result. 450 00:48:25,542 --> 00:48:29,291 It is our deep obligation to all peoples of the world 451 00:48:29,291 --> 00:48:32,667 to show why and how these things happened. 452 00:48:33,625 --> 00:48:35,125 (speaking German) 453 00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:45,542 (Ophuls speaking German) 454 00:48:57,667 --> 00:48:58,875 Ophuls: Mm-hmm. 455 00:49:03,625 --> 00:49:05,166 (speaking German) 456 00:49:20,667 --> 00:49:22,208 (speaking German) 457 00:49:34,834 --> 00:49:36,375 (speaking German) 458 00:49:38,125 --> 00:49:39,417 Ophuls: Ja. 459 00:49:56,083 --> 00:49:57,708 (Ophuls speaks German) 460 00:49:57,708 --> 00:49:59,708 (continues in German) 461 00:50:13,166 --> 00:50:14,708 (speaking French) 462 00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:46,625 (speaking German) 463 00:50:56,667 --> 00:51:00,792 (Ophuls speaking) 464 00:51:20,708 --> 00:51:22,250 (speaking French) 465 00:52:30,041 --> 00:52:33,291 So, my initial connection with Nuremberg really began 466 00:52:33,291 --> 00:52:36,959 because I was ordered to become part of the prosecution team. 467 00:52:36,959 --> 00:52:40,250 I was in the Army. I was given orders to report to it. 468 00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:42,583 And my initial connection with it was not really governed 469 00:52:42,583 --> 00:52:44,417 by any principled approach to this at all. 470 00:52:44,417 --> 00:52:48,041 Far wider are the duties which we must fulfill here. 471 00:52:50,125 --> 00:52:55,000 These larger obligations run to the peoples and races 472 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,083 on whom the scourge of these crimes was laid. 473 00:52:59,458 --> 00:53:03,083 For them, it is far more important 474 00:53:03,083 --> 00:53:06,250 that these incredible events be established 475 00:53:06,250 --> 00:53:09,583 by clear and public proof, 476 00:53:09,583 --> 00:53:11,542 so that no one can ever doubt 477 00:53:11,542 --> 00:53:13,750 that they were fact and not fable. 478 00:53:13,750 --> 00:53:16,875 After all, I was not in a high position at that time. 479 00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:20,375 The ones who were responsible for thinking it out and... 480 00:53:20,375 --> 00:53:23,667 uh, providing the motivation for Nuremberg, yes, 481 00:53:23,667 --> 00:53:25,500 I think they were governed 482 00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:28,959 by this desire to, to articulate these principles, 483 00:53:28,959 --> 00:53:32,000 to put them into application, and to do it on a basis 484 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,083 that they would be willing to see applied to ourselves as well. 485 00:53:35,083 --> 00:53:38,500 Although my initial connection with Nuremberg was, uh, 486 00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:42,792 was as I say... a matter of response to orders, 487 00:53:42,792 --> 00:53:45,291 I then did become interested in it. 488 00:53:45,291 --> 00:53:51,500 I invested nearly four years, uh, of my life after the war... 489 00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:53,959 in continuing to conduct the trials 490 00:53:53,959 --> 00:53:57,667 and was responsible for the trials that came after the first one. 491 00:53:57,667 --> 00:54:00,583 I had signed indictments against individuals 492 00:54:00,583 --> 00:54:03,625 accusing them of, uh, crimes under the laws of war. 493 00:54:03,625 --> 00:54:08,625 Uh, men had been hanged and imprisoned as a result of charges that I had brought. 494 00:54:08,625 --> 00:54:10,125 (speaking German) 495 00:54:21,291 --> 00:54:24,000 (Ophuls speaking German) 496 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,500 (speaking German) 497 00:54:34,542 --> 00:54:36,166 (speaking German) 498 00:54:45,417 --> 00:54:47,041 (speaking German) 499 00:55:03,625 --> 00:55:05,458 Beals: Karl Brandt, 500 00:55:05,458 --> 00:55:09,667 Military Tribunal One has found and adjudged you guilty 501 00:55:09,667 --> 00:55:13,125 of war crimes, crimes against humanity 502 00:55:13,125 --> 00:55:18,041 as charged under the indictment heretofore filed against you. 503 00:55:18,041 --> 00:55:21,291 Military Tribunal One sentences you, 504 00:55:21,291 --> 00:55:24,792 Karl Brandt, to death by hanging. 505 00:55:24,792 --> 00:55:27,750 And may God have mercy upon your soul. 506 00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:31,333 The officer of the guard will remove the defendant Brandt. 507 00:55:31,333 --> 00:55:33,375 Ophuls: How do you feel about capital punishment? 508 00:55:33,375 --> 00:55:36,542 Taylor: If you're asking about capital punishment in the United States, 509 00:55:36,542 --> 00:55:39,208 I'm among its opponents, because it has come to be applied 510 00:55:39,208 --> 00:55:41,834 in a... in a irrational way. 511 00:55:41,834 --> 00:55:45,917 I don't believe that I am completely opposed to capital punishment, 512 00:55:45,917 --> 00:55:49,250 however, if one assumes that it is 513 00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:52,083 in a measured and rational application. (trapdoor clatters) 514 00:55:52,083 --> 00:55:53,750 How could I be? 515 00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:56,000 Uh, if I had been opposed to capital punishment, 516 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,125 I, uh, I would not have, uh, 517 00:55:58,125 --> 00:56:00,333 been involved with Nuremberg. Ophuls: Well, you could've changed. 518 00:56:00,333 --> 00:56:03,083 I mean, you could've been in favor then and... "I could have changed." 519 00:56:03,083 --> 00:56:04,542 ...in opposition now. I don't believe so. 520 00:56:04,542 --> 00:56:06,250 I don't think I've changed in that respect. 521 00:56:06,250 --> 00:56:08,708 (Rose speaking German) 522 00:57:10,542 --> 00:57:12,667 (speaking German) 523 00:57:12,667 --> 00:57:13,708 Ja. 524 00:57:42,083 --> 00:57:46,500 The ability to, to live with quite contradictory notions in one's mind, 525 00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:51,708 such as that we are working to preserve democracy and freedom, 526 00:57:51,708 --> 00:57:55,834 uh, with our ally in, uh, South Vietnam, 527 00:57:55,834 --> 00:57:58,083 knowing quite consciously, on the other hand, 528 00:57:58,083 --> 00:58:01,291 that we have a corrupt dictator, that we have installed, 529 00:58:01,291 --> 00:58:04,375 and who is imprisoning and torturing thousands of people. 530 00:58:04,375 --> 00:58:07,625 The ability to hold those two thoughts in your mind, 531 00:58:07,625 --> 00:58:09,542 uh, not to question either of them, 532 00:58:09,542 --> 00:58:12,959 not to confront them and not to draw any logical implications, 533 00:58:12,959 --> 00:58:14,542 especially from the latter, 534 00:58:14,542 --> 00:58:17,166 the facts of what we're actually doing, 535 00:58:17,166 --> 00:58:21,583 uh, that's an ability which is essential in an official. 536 00:58:21,583 --> 00:58:24,667 And we all had it. I had it. My bosses had it. 537 00:58:24,667 --> 00:58:29,583 Rose (speaking English): Nixon and the American people have made 538 00:58:29,583 --> 00:58:36,250 enormous sacrifices for the interests of their allies. 539 00:58:36,250 --> 00:58:39,250 And I am conscious of the fact 540 00:58:39,250 --> 00:58:45,291 that the existence of my state Germany, 541 00:58:45,291 --> 00:58:48,625 and myself and my family, 542 00:58:48,625 --> 00:58:52,000 depends on the United States, 543 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,291 which maintains peace and order 544 00:58:56,291 --> 00:59:00,542 among minor nations who are guilty of misdemeanor. 545 00:59:00,542 --> 00:59:04,083 Ophuls: Isn't it a little paradoxical that you should take that stand? 546 00:59:04,083 --> 00:59:09,208 Because, after all, you were prosecuted by this American power. 547 00:59:09,208 --> 00:59:11,375 Well, uh, that only 548 00:59:11,375 --> 00:59:15,041 could prove that, uh, 549 00:59:15,041 --> 00:59:18,083 I am a man who is not, 550 00:59:18,083 --> 00:59:21,959 uh, determined by prejudices. 551 00:59:24,125 --> 00:59:28,750 Beals: Military Tribunal One sentences you, Gerhard Rose, 552 00:59:28,750 --> 00:59:33,125 to imprisonment for the full term and period of your natural life, 553 00:59:33,125 --> 00:59:36,000 to be served at such prison or prisons 554 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,458 or other appropriate place of confinement 555 00:59:38,458 --> 00:59:41,333 as shall be determined by competent authorities. 556 00:59:41,333 --> 00:59:43,125 (speaking German) 557 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,542 (door opens) 558 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,000 (Serge speaking French) 559 01:00:20,333 --> 01:00:22,291 (Beate speaking German) 560 01:00:50,083 --> 01:00:52,083 (speaking French) 561 01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:38,458 (Beate speaking German) 562 01:01:45,417 --> 01:01:47,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 563 01:02:13,792 --> 01:02:15,417 (Ophuls speaking German) 564 01:02:17,542 --> 01:02:21,291 (Ophuls speaks) (man speaks) 565 01:02:21,291 --> 01:02:24,250 (woman laughing) 566 01:02:24,250 --> 01:02:26,792 (Ophuls speaks) (man speaks) 567 01:02:27,792 --> 01:02:29,250 Ophuls: Nein. Man: Nein. 568 01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:30,583 (Ophuls speaking) 569 01:02:32,083 --> 01:02:33,667 (speaking German) 570 01:02:34,875 --> 01:02:38,333 (woman speaks German, laughs) (Ophuls speaking German) 571 01:02:43,125 --> 01:02:44,625 (Ophuls speaking) 572 01:02:52,500 --> 01:02:55,542 Many people of that age were involved. 573 01:02:55,542 --> 01:02:58,083 And therefore, the whole idea of... 574 01:02:58,083 --> 01:03:01,333 of imposing a guilt feeling on this is very repugnant to them. 575 01:03:01,333 --> 01:03:04,500 I think one of the reasons why the Anne Frank movie was so popular 576 01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:07,125 was because you never see any Germans in it. 577 01:03:07,125 --> 01:03:09,834 You hear them come up the stairs, you never see anybody. 578 01:03:09,834 --> 01:03:13,583 And so the German people could get a feeling of, "Ah, yes, it was all terrible," 579 01:03:13,583 --> 01:03:17,417 but nothing is ever brought home to them, as an individual about it. 580 01:03:19,583 --> 01:03:20,667 Oh. 581 01:03:24,208 --> 01:03:26,041 (indistinct chattering) 582 01:03:32,500 --> 01:03:34,333 (indistinct chattering) 583 01:03:34,333 --> 01:03:38,083 (speaking German) 584 01:03:47,792 --> 01:03:50,208 (woman speaking German) 585 01:03:55,166 --> 01:03:57,917 (man speaking German) 586 01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:51,959 (Ophuls speaks) 587 01:04:54,583 --> 01:04:55,834 Ophuls: Ja. 588 01:04:58,458 --> 01:05:00,083 (Ophuls speaks in German) 589 01:05:15,708 --> 01:05:17,667 Taylor: When we made Judgment at Nuremberg, 590 01:05:17,667 --> 01:05:19,750 one part of that television show 591 01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:22,834 consisted of clips of the concentration camps, 592 01:05:22,834 --> 01:05:26,750 and, uh, where gas had been used as a means of extermination. 593 01:05:26,750 --> 01:05:30,291 Um, just before the show was put on television, 594 01:05:30,291 --> 01:05:32,959 the producer and the director were asked 595 01:05:32,959 --> 01:05:35,583 to eliminate all reference to gas. 596 01:05:35,583 --> 01:05:37,500 Well, they refused, quite rightly, 597 01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:40,000 but when the show was put on television, 598 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,458 the control, uh, switch was pulled every time gas was mentioned, 599 01:05:43,458 --> 01:05:45,041 so the word "gas" is never heard. 600 01:05:45,041 --> 01:05:47,542 Ophuls: Blipped out. Uh, blipped out, yes. 601 01:05:47,542 --> 01:05:52,291 The reason was that, uh, one of the sponsors of the show was Pacific Gas and Electric, 602 01:05:52,291 --> 01:05:56,291 uh, which didn't like the idea of having gas mentioned in this unfriendly way. 603 01:05:56,291 --> 01:06:00,125 (mechanical whirring) 604 01:06:00,125 --> 01:06:03,667 (Willi Forst singing "Du Hast Gluck Bei Den Frau'n, Bel Ami!") 605 01:06:05,542 --> 01:06:06,875 (no audible dialogue) 606 01:06:06,875 --> 01:06:08,667 ♪ ♪ 607 01:06:30,125 --> 01:06:32,333 (no audible dialogue) 608 01:06:32,333 --> 01:06:34,250 ♪ ♪ 609 01:06:47,250 --> 01:06:48,417 (speaking German) 610 01:07:03,417 --> 01:07:05,125 (Ophuls speaks) 611 01:07:19,875 --> 01:07:22,875 (man speaking German) 612 01:07:31,291 --> 01:07:32,417 (man 2 speaks German) 613 01:08:44,166 --> 01:08:48,166 (Willi Forst singing "Du Hast Gluck Bei Den Frau'n, Bel Ami!") 614 01:08:58,583 --> 01:09:01,250 ♪ ♪ 615 01:09:16,041 --> 01:09:19,041 ♪ ♪ 616 01:09:34,250 --> 01:09:38,375 (speaking German) 617 01:09:51,875 --> 01:09:53,417 (shouting in German) 618 01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,875 Seig Heil! 619 01:09:59,875 --> 01:10:03,041 (soldiers chanting " Seig Heil ") (triumphant music playing) 620 01:10:06,458 --> 01:10:10,875 (chorus singing "Es Zittern Die Morschen Knochen" in German) 621 01:10:12,625 --> 01:10:14,000 (Nixdorf speaking German) 622 01:10:22,083 --> 01:10:23,500 (Ophuls speaking German) 623 01:10:27,875 --> 01:10:30,417 (speaking German) 624 01:11:30,250 --> 01:11:31,667 (Ophuls speaks German) 625 01:11:39,792 --> 01:11:41,875 (speaking German) 626 01:12:06,500 --> 01:12:07,834 (laughter) 627 01:13:16,291 --> 01:13:17,834 (speaking German) 628 01:13:31,291 --> 01:13:33,834 (Ophuls speaking German) 629 01:13:38,291 --> 01:13:40,250 (Ophuls speaking) 630 01:13:48,375 --> 01:13:49,875 (speaking German) 631 01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:43,834 (speaking German) 632 01:14:53,875 --> 01:14:55,875 (speaking German) 633 01:15:38,333 --> 01:15:40,208 (speaking German) 634 01:15:47,625 --> 01:15:49,458 Ophuls: Ja. 635 01:16:04,667 --> 01:16:07,417 Ophuls: Uh-huh. 636 01:16:16,959 --> 01:16:19,125 (speaking French) 637 01:16:33,708 --> 01:16:35,291 (speaking German) 638 01:16:38,333 --> 01:16:39,500 (Ophuls speaks) 639 01:16:44,166 --> 01:16:46,000 (Ophuls speaks) 640 01:17:10,834 --> 01:17:12,083 Ja. 641 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:15,542 (speaking French) 642 01:17:18,041 --> 01:17:19,417 Ophuls: Oui. 643 01:17:26,583 --> 01:17:28,083 (speaking French) 644 01:17:44,834 --> 01:17:46,917 (speaking German) 645 01:18:03,125 --> 01:18:04,417 (Ophuls speaks German) 646 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:14,375 (speaking French) 647 01:18:20,834 --> 01:18:22,291 (Beate speaking French) 648 01:18:40,125 --> 01:18:41,625 (speaking French) 649 01:18:55,542 --> 01:18:57,333 Ophuls: Oui. 650 01:19:33,500 --> 01:19:35,667 Ophuls: Oui. 651 01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:11,166 Oui. 652 01:20:41,208 --> 01:20:43,291 (speaking German) 653 01:20:46,583 --> 01:20:49,291 (Beate speaking German) 654 01:21:17,250 --> 01:21:19,375 Ophuls: Ja, ja. 655 01:21:24,291 --> 01:21:26,125 (Ophuls speaks) 656 01:21:27,041 --> 01:21:29,291 (speaking German) 657 01:21:32,375 --> 01:21:34,166 (Serge speaking French) 658 01:22:08,917 --> 01:22:11,291 (Kuenzel speaking German) 659 01:22:11,291 --> 01:22:12,959 Ophuls: Ja. 660 01:22:16,500 --> 01:22:18,667 (Ophuls speaks) 661 01:22:29,583 --> 01:22:31,166 (speaking German) 662 01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:42,792 (speaking German) 663 01:22:49,792 --> 01:22:51,000 Ja. 664 01:23:02,041 --> 01:23:04,917 "The people who had got off the trucks, 665 01:23:04,917 --> 01:23:08,208 men, women and children of all ages, 666 01:23:08,208 --> 01:23:11,750 had to undress upon the orders of an SS man 667 01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:14,041 who carried a riding or dog whip." 668 01:23:14,041 --> 01:23:15,542 (speaking German) 669 01:23:28,375 --> 01:23:33,041 Shawcross: "I walked around the mound, and found myself confronted 670 01:23:33,041 --> 01:23:36,291 "by 30 naked people lying near the pit, 671 01:23:36,291 --> 01:23:39,917 "about 30 to 50 meters away from it. 672 01:23:39,917 --> 01:23:42,166 "Some of them were still alive. 673 01:23:42,166 --> 01:23:45,417 "They looked straight in front of them with a fixed stare, 674 01:23:45,417 --> 01:23:49,583 "and seemed to notice neither the chilliness of the morning 675 01:23:49,583 --> 01:23:53,500 "nor the workers of my firm who stood around. 676 01:23:53,500 --> 01:23:57,125 "They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, 677 01:23:57,125 --> 01:24:01,792 "sorted according to shoes, top clothing, and underclothing. 678 01:24:03,458 --> 01:24:09,291 "Without screaming or weeping, these people undressed, 679 01:24:09,291 --> 01:24:12,708 "stood around in family groups, 680 01:24:12,708 --> 01:24:16,959 "kissed each other, said farewells, 681 01:24:16,959 --> 01:24:19,959 "and waited for a sign from another SS man 682 01:24:19,959 --> 01:24:22,959 who stood near the pit with a whip in his hand." 683 01:24:23,959 --> 01:24:26,291 (Speer speaking German) 684 01:24:57,542 --> 01:25:00,291 Shawcross: "An old woman with snow-white hair 685 01:25:00,291 --> 01:25:05,792 "was holding a one-year-old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. 686 01:25:07,041 --> 01:25:10,166 "The child was cooing with delight. 687 01:25:10,166 --> 01:25:13,333 "The couple were looking on with tears in their eyes. 688 01:25:15,166 --> 01:25:20,500 "The father was holding the hand of a boy, about ten years old, and speaking to him softly. 689 01:25:21,583 --> 01:25:24,708 "The boy was fighting his tears. 690 01:25:24,708 --> 01:25:30,458 "At that moment, the SS man at the pit shouted something to his comrade. 691 01:25:30,458 --> 01:25:34,708 "I well remember a girl, slim and with black hair, 692 01:25:34,708 --> 01:25:36,708 "who, as she passed close to me, 693 01:25:36,708 --> 01:25:41,000 pointed to herself and said, 'Twenty-three.'" 694 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,375 (Speer speaking German) 695 01:25:56,625 --> 01:25:59,041 Shawcross: "People were closely wedged together, 696 01:25:59,041 --> 01:26:01,208 "and lying on top of each other, 697 01:26:01,208 --> 01:26:04,458 "so that only their heads were visible. 698 01:26:04,458 --> 01:26:09,959 "Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. 699 01:26:09,959 --> 01:26:13,333 "Some of the people shot were still moving. 700 01:26:13,333 --> 01:26:18,667 Some were lifting their arms and turning their heads to show that they were still alive." 701 01:26:18,667 --> 01:26:24,542 Women and children have died thus, murdered in cold blood! 702 01:26:24,542 --> 01:26:27,583 It's understandable, I suppose, that, um, 703 01:26:27,583 --> 01:26:32,166 some Germans should resent the Nuremberg process, 704 01:26:32,166 --> 01:26:35,125 and understandable, also, that the British 705 01:26:35,125 --> 01:26:38,667 and the Allied powers should, um, defend it. 706 01:26:38,667 --> 01:26:40,583 What is that old maxim? 707 01:26:40,583 --> 01:26:44,667 "My country, right or wrong, but still my country." 708 01:26:44,667 --> 01:26:48,583 Now, I'm not trying to justify that ethically, but it is a fact of life 709 01:26:48,583 --> 01:26:51,333 that people tend to think in that way. 710 01:26:51,333 --> 01:26:57,959 I don't think that the Germans, um, ever realized or... 711 01:26:57,959 --> 01:27:01,959 or considered whether these things were moral or not. 712 01:27:01,959 --> 01:27:05,542 Ophuls: Yes, but not only were these acts 713 01:27:05,542 --> 01:27:08,834 not discouraged under the previous system, 714 01:27:08,834 --> 01:27:11,250 they were openly encouraged. 715 01:27:11,250 --> 01:27:15,458 I mean, there was a whole ideology that, um, 716 01:27:15,458 --> 01:27:20,667 that made what was considered by others immoral 717 01:27:20,667 --> 01:27:23,250 into patriotic acts. 718 01:27:23,250 --> 01:27:24,834 It's awfully difficult to think 719 01:27:24,834 --> 01:27:28,917 that those who took part, for instance, in the, uh, 720 01:27:28,917 --> 01:27:32,708 in the establishment and conduct of the concentration camps, 721 01:27:32,708 --> 01:27:36,333 and the annihilation of the Jews 722 01:27:36,333 --> 01:27:38,333 can ever really have thought, 723 01:27:38,333 --> 01:27:39,834 if they thought about it at all, 724 01:27:39,834 --> 01:27:43,583 that it was a, a good and a patriotic thing to do. 725 01:27:43,583 --> 01:27:47,333 Millions upon millions more today 726 01:27:47,333 --> 01:27:49,333 mourn their fathers and their mothers, 727 01:27:49,333 --> 01:27:53,500 their husbands, their wives, and their children. 728 01:27:53,500 --> 01:27:58,917 What right has any man to mercy who has played a part, 729 01:27:58,917 --> 01:28:02,208 however indirectly, in such a crime? 730 01:28:02,208 --> 01:28:03,792 (speaking German) 731 01:29:35,125 --> 01:29:37,041 (speaking German) 732 01:29:38,834 --> 01:29:40,583 (Ophuls speaks German) 733 01:29:44,333 --> 01:29:46,333 (Ophuls speaks) 734 01:30:00,542 --> 01:30:02,083 (Ophuls speaks) 735 01:30:34,083 --> 01:30:35,875 (speaking German) 736 01:30:54,125 --> 01:30:56,875 (Joan Baez singing "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" in German) 737 01:30:56,875 --> 01:31:00,000 ♪ ♪ 738 01:31:18,041 --> 01:31:21,583 (continues singing) 739 01:31:21,583 --> 01:31:23,500 ♪ ♪ 740 01:31:29,041 --> 01:31:32,000 ♪ ♪ 741 01:31:37,208 --> 01:31:38,875 (no audible dialogue) 742 01:31:38,875 --> 01:31:41,083 (continues singing) 743 01:31:46,291 --> 01:31:48,083 ♪ ♪ 744 01:32:00,708 --> 01:32:03,959 ♪ ♪ 745 01:32:24,250 --> 01:32:27,125 (continues singing) 746 01:32:53,250 --> 01:32:56,792 ♪ ♪ 747 01:33:14,834 --> 01:33:17,333 (applause) 748 01:33:18,667 --> 01:33:21,708 (patriotic music playing) 749 01:33:21,708 --> 01:33:23,875 (man narrating in German) 750 01:34:03,917 --> 01:34:06,708 ♪ ♪ 751 01:34:17,959 --> 01:34:20,417 (applause) 752 01:34:20,417 --> 01:34:22,500 ♪ ♪ 753 01:34:25,917 --> 01:34:28,041 Man: They, they really seem pretty enthusiastic 754 01:34:28,041 --> 01:34:29,875 about the books and things. 755 01:34:29,875 --> 01:34:32,583 Did, did they know what the books were, were like? 756 01:34:32,583 --> 01:34:35,708 The new books, uh... 757 01:34:35,708 --> 01:34:39,583 I guess I liked them very much because they were prettier. 758 01:34:39,583 --> 01:34:41,750 (man narrating in German) 759 01:34:56,291 --> 01:35:00,417 Uh, what kind of, uh, effect did the Nazi books have on you? 760 01:35:00,417 --> 01:35:02,625 So, do you remember? Mm. Oh, oh. 761 01:35:02,625 --> 01:35:05,333 Well, I-I guess I remember pretty well, 762 01:35:05,333 --> 01:35:09,542 because there wasn't any sentence in... in a book, 763 01:35:09,542 --> 01:35:14,750 uh, that wasn't, wasn't really referring to a propaganda. 764 01:35:14,750 --> 01:35:18,208 I think you can't imagine what, what it is, um, 765 01:35:18,208 --> 01:35:20,625 being, being brainwashed all day long. 766 01:35:20,625 --> 01:35:22,375 Man: So, your friends, or were they 767 01:35:22,375 --> 01:35:25,583 relations involved in the Hitler Youth movement? 768 01:35:25,583 --> 01:35:27,375 I was. You were? 769 01:35:27,375 --> 01:35:30,125 I w-- I was. Uh... I see. 770 01:35:30,125 --> 01:35:31,917 How did you get involved in that? 771 01:35:31,917 --> 01:35:36,125 Was it, um... I know it's something that sort of spread like a wildfire over-- 772 01:35:36,125 --> 01:35:39,208 No. No, it was just... 773 01:35:39,208 --> 01:35:41,458 It was almost compulsory. It was-- 774 01:35:41,458 --> 01:35:43,834 Being a Jewish child, 775 01:35:43,834 --> 01:35:48,208 surrounded by kids that you played with, 776 01:35:48,208 --> 01:35:51,959 and that became Nazis, I mean, became Hitler Youth and so on... 777 01:35:51,959 --> 01:35:54,375 you felt very much you wanted to join, too, 778 01:35:54,375 --> 01:35:57,458 and wanted to have their jackets and things like this. 779 01:35:57,458 --> 01:35:59,959 Man: Of course, you weren't allowed to. Hardly. 780 01:35:59,959 --> 01:36:03,875 All that you did hear was, uh, you know, "Jew die." 781 01:36:03,875 --> 01:36:06,333 Female Interviewee: From the very beginning, 782 01:36:06,333 --> 01:36:08,208 the trucks drove around 783 01:36:08,208 --> 01:36:12,458 through Berlin yelling, "Jews die." 784 01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:15,000 (chanting in German) 785 01:36:22,125 --> 01:36:24,500 Do you have any memories of the destruction of temples 786 01:36:24,500 --> 01:36:27,166 or children not showing up at school? That's, uh-- 787 01:36:27,166 --> 01:36:32,500 Well, uh, the first, first, uh, thing I have mem-- 788 01:36:32,500 --> 01:36:36,667 uh, I have memories of was the burning of the synagogue 789 01:36:36,667 --> 01:36:39,708 around the corner of our, of our house then, 790 01:36:39,708 --> 01:36:44,041 and, uh, I just remember the smoke coming out of the building. 791 01:36:44,041 --> 01:36:47,875 Next day, I went by and, uh, 792 01:36:47,875 --> 01:36:51,792 I saw people jumping on a piano in the rubble, 793 01:36:51,792 --> 01:36:55,417 and that was something that stayed with me 794 01:36:55,417 --> 01:37:00,375 as an image of, uh, of the whole thing. 795 01:37:03,500 --> 01:37:05,500 Parents didn't talk to children, 796 01:37:05,500 --> 01:37:09,208 because the children might denounce them. Denounce them. 797 01:37:09,208 --> 01:37:12,000 And I remember my-my sister, my younger sister, 798 01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:14,250 five years younger than I am, 799 01:37:14,250 --> 01:37:19,667 um, she admitted, uh, that, at one time, 800 01:37:19,667 --> 01:37:22,959 she was thinking about denouncing my mother, 801 01:37:22,959 --> 01:37:27,417 and she's, she's a real nice, nice, uh... woman. 802 01:37:27,417 --> 01:37:31,750 She was also a real nice kid, but she was thinking about denouncing my mother, 803 01:37:31,750 --> 01:37:35,458 because she was talking over a garden fence to a neighbor 804 01:37:35,458 --> 01:37:38,750 who, uh, was... Ophuls: Considered politically-- 805 01:37:38,750 --> 01:37:42,583 ...considered politically unsafe, and... 806 01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:46,583 (drum roll, fanfare playing) 807 01:37:48,667 --> 01:37:50,250 Male Narrator: The March of Time! 808 01:37:50,250 --> 01:37:52,291 ♪ ♪ 809 01:38:04,583 --> 01:38:05,792 ♪ ♪ 810 01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:15,542 Narrator: Today, almost two years 811 01:38:15,542 --> 01:38:18,291 after the last great battles of World War II, 812 01:38:18,291 --> 01:38:21,041 American troops are still heading overseas 813 01:38:21,041 --> 01:38:24,250 as occupation forces for conquered Germany. 814 01:38:24,250 --> 01:38:26,125 ♪ ♪ 815 01:38:27,625 --> 01:38:29,875 But of America's aims in Germany, 816 01:38:29,875 --> 01:38:33,041 aims which may profoundly affect the future of the world, 817 01:38:33,041 --> 01:38:35,708 few of these soldier ambassadors of the United States 818 01:38:35,708 --> 01:38:38,083 have any very clear idea. 819 01:38:38,083 --> 01:38:40,625 You know how much money we're spending on Germany? 820 01:38:40,625 --> 01:38:44,250 I read the other day it costs us $200 million a year. 821 01:38:44,250 --> 01:38:46,667 Don't worry. We'll get it all back. 822 01:38:46,667 --> 01:38:49,208 They say with a few cartons of cigarettes to start with, 823 01:38:49,208 --> 01:38:51,083 you can get rich over there in no time. 824 01:38:51,083 --> 01:38:53,917 Yeah, and with just a few packs of cigarettes, 825 01:38:53,917 --> 01:38:56,333 you can up pick any Fraulein in Germany. 826 01:38:56,333 --> 01:38:57,834 Okay, okay. 827 01:38:57,834 --> 01:39:00,917 But how do you like us spending all that dough on a lot of Krauts? 828 01:39:00,917 --> 01:39:04,667 Narrator: Today, Hitler's erstwhile master race is living abjectly, 829 01:39:04,667 --> 01:39:06,708 without initiative, without dignity. 830 01:39:06,708 --> 01:39:11,417 Its grandiose aspirations reduced to an endless struggle for mere existence: 831 01:39:11,417 --> 01:39:13,667 for enough fuel to keep from freezing, 832 01:39:13,667 --> 01:39:16,125 for enough food to keep from starving. 833 01:39:16,125 --> 01:39:18,667 ♪ ♪ 834 01:39:21,333 --> 01:39:23,625 We used to, for instance, stole chocolates 835 01:39:23,625 --> 01:39:26,083 out of the Jeeps of the American GIs. 836 01:39:26,083 --> 01:39:28,208 Narrator: Opportunities to enjoy life are plentiful 837 01:39:28,208 --> 01:39:32,375 for any German girl who is willing to fraternize with American soldiers. 838 01:39:32,375 --> 01:39:34,875 ♪ ♪ 839 01:39:39,500 --> 01:39:42,375 Despite public resentment of such fraternization, 840 01:39:42,375 --> 01:39:45,625 thousands of Frauleins have been quick to make the most of their chances 841 01:39:45,625 --> 01:39:48,333 to better their lot by consorting with GIs 842 01:39:48,333 --> 01:39:51,750 who can pay for their company with both entertainment and food. 843 01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:53,667 (jazz music playing) 844 01:40:01,125 --> 01:40:06,500 I worked to... to bring home something to eat 845 01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:08,708 at an American Red Cross club. 846 01:40:08,708 --> 01:40:11,208 I was working there as a painter, 847 01:40:11,208 --> 01:40:14,000 and we did sketches for the GIs. 848 01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:19,166 They stand in front of us on a-- on a table, turned the profile like that, 849 01:40:19,166 --> 01:40:23,708 and we made cartoons of them, and they like it very much, and we were-- 850 01:40:23,708 --> 01:40:27,750 Our sign outside our study was, um, uh, 851 01:40:27,750 --> 01:40:31,375 "In five and a half seconds, your picture taken." 852 01:40:31,375 --> 01:40:33,875 Ophuls: What about the anti-fraternization laws? 853 01:40:33,875 --> 01:40:36,417 Weren't you a Fraulein? I mean, were they 18? 854 01:40:36,417 --> 01:40:38,083 Mm-hmm. You were a Fraulein. 855 01:40:38,083 --> 01:40:41,166 Mm-hmm. I guess- I guess so. (laughter) 856 01:40:41,166 --> 01:40:43,083 ♪ ♪ 857 01:40:43,083 --> 01:40:46,208 Narrator: For all the lip service Germans pay to democracy, 858 01:40:46,208 --> 01:40:49,041 for all their servile friendliness of manner, 859 01:40:49,041 --> 01:40:52,125 the US military government faces no obstacle more subtle 860 01:40:52,125 --> 01:40:55,333 than the inherent arrogance of an egotistical people. 861 01:40:55,333 --> 01:40:57,166 ♪ ♪ 862 01:40:58,875 --> 01:41:01,959 But at least America is resolved to continue the occupation 863 01:41:01,959 --> 01:41:05,583 until the Germans give conclusive evidence of regeneration. 864 01:41:05,583 --> 01:41:08,291 If necessary, for 40 years. 865 01:41:08,291 --> 01:41:13,959 For of adult Germans deeply affected by Nazism, little can be expected. 866 01:41:13,959 --> 01:41:18,792 Any hope that Germany will ever become a responsible, peace-loving nation 867 01:41:18,792 --> 01:41:20,667 centers on the very young, 868 01:41:20,667 --> 01:41:24,917 who have not been corrupted by Hitler's doctrines of treachery and aggression. 869 01:41:24,917 --> 01:41:28,417 Who may still be taught that Germany can find greatness 870 01:41:28,417 --> 01:41:30,708 only through freedom and democracy, 871 01:41:30,708 --> 01:41:34,542 in peaceful cooperation with the rest of mankind. 872 01:41:34,542 --> 01:41:36,834 ♪ ♪ 873 01:41:36,834 --> 01:41:39,500 Time... marches on! 874 01:41:39,500 --> 01:41:41,458 ♪ ♪ 875 01:41:43,834 --> 01:41:47,458 I guess my feelings about Americans and the American history 876 01:41:47,458 --> 01:41:50,834 have changed more than feelings about the Germans. 877 01:41:50,834 --> 01:41:54,834 Uh, the fact of the matter is that, uh, when, when I began with the Nuremberg trials, 878 01:41:54,834 --> 01:41:58,500 I didn't have strong anti-German feelings. 879 01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:01,667 This is perhaps the result of World War I. 880 01:42:01,667 --> 01:42:05,208 You may have noticed that I've got some old posters from World War I, 881 01:42:05,208 --> 01:42:07,125 uh, around here and there. 882 01:42:07,125 --> 01:42:08,834 I was just old enough at the time 883 01:42:08,834 --> 01:42:12,542 to be aware of a great deal of anti-German sentiment, 884 01:42:12,542 --> 01:42:15,166 and I discovered also that a good many of the accusations 885 01:42:15,166 --> 01:42:17,917 about atrocities in Belgium were more myth than reality, 886 01:42:17,917 --> 01:42:20,291 and therefore, I went into Germany with the feeling 887 01:42:20,291 --> 01:42:22,458 that the Germans are not very different from us. 888 01:42:22,458 --> 01:42:24,041 (speaking German) 889 01:42:40,041 --> 01:42:42,417 To most of us, it all seemed to be of a piece, 890 01:42:42,417 --> 01:42:45,583 that, uh, the United Nations was going to be a better version of the League of Nations. 891 01:42:45,583 --> 01:42:47,667 It would tend to keep the peace in the future. 892 01:42:47,667 --> 01:42:49,583 (speaking German) 893 01:43:05,708 --> 01:43:07,417 (speaking German) 894 01:43:09,792 --> 01:43:12,417 Lawrence: Will you state your full name, please? 895 01:43:12,417 --> 01:43:15,083 (Speer continues in German) Albert Speer. 896 01:43:27,834 --> 01:43:28,917 (Nixdorf speaks German) 897 01:43:38,083 --> 01:43:39,959 (speaking German) 898 01:43:44,041 --> 01:43:49,625 All law is, um, created by the victors for the vanquished. 899 01:43:49,625 --> 01:43:51,166 All law! 900 01:43:51,166 --> 01:43:54,750 It is the majority who will lay down-- Ophuls: Or the society in power. 901 01:43:54,750 --> 01:43:57,542 Or the people in power. Society in power who lay down the laws. 902 01:43:57,542 --> 01:44:00,959 And I have no doubt that the first person 903 01:44:00,959 --> 01:44:04,834 who, in the very early history of our common law, 904 01:44:04,834 --> 01:44:08,625 was prosecuted and hanged for murder, said, 905 01:44:08,625 --> 01:44:12,375 "You can't do that to me. It's never been a crime before." 906 01:44:12,375 --> 01:44:14,125 (speaking German) 907 01:44:42,500 --> 01:44:46,166 What they've got to do, I think, is to look at the principles. 908 01:44:46,166 --> 01:44:49,417 Not ask themselves, "Who laid these down?" 909 01:44:49,417 --> 01:44:51,208 But "What are the principles?" 910 01:44:51,208 --> 01:44:55,333 And then ask themselves, "Are these principles right or wrong?" 911 01:44:55,333 --> 01:44:59,708 And if they're right, it doesn't matter a curse who laid them down. 912 01:44:59,708 --> 01:45:01,250 (speaking German) 913 01:45:30,291 --> 01:45:32,542 (Ophuls speaking German) 914 01:45:33,542 --> 01:45:34,875 (speaking German) 915 01:45:49,166 --> 01:45:51,542 The murderers are the vanquished. 916 01:45:51,542 --> 01:45:53,917 The law makes murder a crime. 917 01:45:53,917 --> 01:45:57,333 Society makes it a crime. Ophuls: Of course, a Marxist would also add that 918 01:45:57,333 --> 01:46:01,041 the laws on property are the laws of those in power 919 01:46:01,041 --> 01:46:03,708 against those who are out of power, who may be the majority, but that's-- 920 01:46:03,708 --> 01:46:05,917 Well, I'm not a Marxist, I'm afraid. (Ophuls laughs) 921 01:46:05,917 --> 01:46:09,834 You won't induce me to enter into an argument about Marxism. 922 01:46:09,834 --> 01:46:13,250 Shawcross: There was quite a big school of thought in Britain, 923 01:46:13,250 --> 01:46:16,417 and, um, even more so in the Soviet Union, 924 01:46:16,417 --> 01:46:21,291 when they came into the war, in favor of what was called "executive action." 925 01:46:21,291 --> 01:46:25,333 Which was that these men should be, um, caught, 926 01:46:25,333 --> 01:46:29,959 there should be a very short drumhead court-martial, 927 01:46:29,959 --> 01:46:34,625 and they would be executed, um, out of hand in the morning. 928 01:46:34,625 --> 01:46:37,792 The Americans were very much opposed to this. 929 01:46:37,792 --> 01:46:40,583 Americans, in those days, at any rate, um, 930 01:46:40,583 --> 01:46:45,625 had a great belief in the rule of law and injustice. 931 01:46:45,625 --> 01:46:47,959 That four great nations, 932 01:46:49,125 --> 01:46:54,291 flushed with victory and stung with injury, 933 01:46:54,291 --> 01:46:57,458 stay the hand of vengeance, 934 01:46:57,458 --> 01:47:01,959 and voluntarily submit their captive enemies 935 01:47:01,959 --> 01:47:04,667 to the judgment of the law 936 01:47:04,667 --> 01:47:08,625 is one of the most significant tributes 937 01:47:08,625 --> 01:47:11,834 that power has ever paid to reason. 938 01:47:11,834 --> 01:47:15,542 I think the British, in the earlier days, 939 01:47:15,542 --> 01:47:20,333 felt that the thing would not have the appearance of justice, 940 01:47:20,333 --> 01:47:26,208 that it might be said that this was a tribunal composed of the victors, 941 01:47:26,208 --> 01:47:33,000 that the defendants would not be given a proper opportunity of, um, defending themselves, 942 01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:37,166 and that the trial would look rather a bogus affair. 943 01:47:37,166 --> 01:47:40,333 I think it was at the, um, Yalta Conference, 944 01:47:40,333 --> 01:47:43,333 Stalin said that the proper course 945 01:47:43,333 --> 01:47:49,041 would be to arrest 50,000 members of the German general staff, 946 01:47:49,041 --> 01:47:52,291 and execute them out of hand. 947 01:47:52,291 --> 01:47:54,875 Uh, Roosevelt thought this was a joke, 948 01:47:54,875 --> 01:47:58,542 and he said, "Well, perhaps 49,000." 949 01:47:58,542 --> 01:48:02,750 But, uh, Winston Churchill took it very seriously, indeed, 950 01:48:02,750 --> 01:48:07,041 and he said that he would sooner be taken out into the garden 951 01:48:07,041 --> 01:48:09,834 and shot at once, himself, 952 01:48:09,834 --> 01:48:12,917 than be a party to such an act of barbarity. 953 01:48:14,250 --> 01:48:16,917 May it please the Tribunal. 954 01:48:18,291 --> 01:48:24,417 On an occasion to which, um, reference has and will be made, 955 01:48:24,417 --> 01:48:29,750 Hitler, the leader of the Nazi conspirators, 956 01:48:29,750 --> 01:48:33,375 who are now on trial before you, 957 01:48:33,375 --> 01:48:40,208 is reported as having said, "In starting and making a war, 958 01:48:40,208 --> 01:48:45,000 not the right is what matters, but victory." 959 01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,583 Hitherto... 960 01:48:47,583 --> 01:48:49,917 everybody had been inclined to feel 961 01:48:49,917 --> 01:48:53,125 that if the thing was done in the name of the state, 962 01:48:53,125 --> 01:48:57,917 then they who represented the state or who settled the policy 963 01:48:57,917 --> 01:49:03,250 would be able to remain in a position of, um, anonymity 964 01:49:03,250 --> 01:49:07,250 and escape any individual retribution. 965 01:49:07,250 --> 01:49:13,417 These crimes with which we deal are unprecedented, 966 01:49:13,417 --> 01:49:18,250 first because of the shocking number of victims. 967 01:49:18,250 --> 01:49:23,291 They are even more shocking and unprecedented 968 01:49:23,291 --> 01:49:26,291 because of the large number of people 969 01:49:26,291 --> 01:49:29,625 who united their efforts to perpetrate them. 970 01:49:29,625 --> 01:49:34,125 A thousand little fuhrers dictated. 971 01:49:34,125 --> 01:49:37,208 A thousand imitation Goerings strutted. 972 01:49:37,208 --> 01:49:39,792 A thousand Streichers stirred up hate. 973 01:49:39,792 --> 01:49:43,208 A thousand Kaltenbrunners tortured and killed. 974 01:49:43,208 --> 01:49:45,625 A thousand Speers administered. 975 01:49:45,625 --> 01:49:48,291 (Ophuls speaking German) 976 01:49:50,458 --> 01:49:52,458 (speaking German) 977 01:50:51,417 --> 01:50:53,542 (Ophuls speaking German) 978 01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,250 (Spiess speaking German) 979 01:51:55,250 --> 01:51:56,959 (Edgar Faure speaking French) 980 01:52:41,166 --> 01:52:46,333 Ophuls: Did you ever think, uh, "Perhaps, in that situation, 981 01:52:46,333 --> 01:52:51,000 I might have acted in that particular way, that particular instance," 982 01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:53,792 and then have gone on with the prosecution? 983 01:52:54,959 --> 01:52:57,834 I often wondered how I and my friends, 984 01:52:57,834 --> 01:53:00,792 and, uh, others whom I knew back home, 985 01:53:00,792 --> 01:53:04,125 would have reacted under these pressures. That's certainly true. 986 01:53:04,125 --> 01:53:06,500 Uh, I suppose that, having wondered, 987 01:53:06,500 --> 01:53:09,000 I didn't pursue the question further. 988 01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:10,417 There's no way I could answer it. 989 01:53:10,417 --> 01:53:13,083 I mean, I wasn't tested in that way and I don't know. 990 01:53:13,083 --> 01:53:18,083 Uh, and, of course, if everybody gave up the attempt to impose principles on conduct 991 01:53:18,083 --> 01:53:20,708 because they themselves might yield under pressure, 992 01:53:20,708 --> 01:53:25,166 uh, that would not be a very sensible solution to the situation, practically. 993 01:53:25,166 --> 01:53:27,750 No, all I could do is wonder. Wonder, doubt... 994 01:53:27,750 --> 01:53:30,000 We cannot make history over again here, 995 01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:32,500 but we can see that it is written true. 996 01:53:32,500 --> 01:53:35,708 Taylor: That must, uh, plague anybody who has been, 997 01:53:35,708 --> 01:53:39,166 uh, seriously involved in situations that test people very deeply. 998 01:53:39,166 --> 01:53:41,875 ♪ ♪ 999 01:53:42,959 --> 01:53:45,375 Male Narrator: Nuremberg, the city of Durer 1000 01:53:45,375 --> 01:53:48,417 and of National Socialist rallies. 1001 01:53:48,417 --> 01:53:50,875 ♪ ♪ 1002 01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:55,875 The Luitpold Arena. 1003 01:54:04,708 --> 01:54:07,583 The remains of Julius Streicher's house. 1004 01:54:14,250 --> 01:54:16,250 Gestapo headquarters. 1005 01:54:16,250 --> 01:54:18,417 (Faure speaking French) 1006 01:54:28,041 --> 01:54:33,125 I drove by car through the Ruhr to Nuremberg, 1007 01:54:33,125 --> 01:54:39,291 and, um, it was shocking to see the damage that had been done to so many towns. 1008 01:54:39,291 --> 01:54:43,708 Although, of course, in London and Liverpool, 1009 01:54:43,708 --> 01:54:49,166 where I'd had to work during the war, there was also very great, um, damage. 1010 01:54:49,166 --> 01:54:51,083 (speaking French) 1011 01:55:26,250 --> 01:55:28,000 (speaking French) 1012 01:55:48,792 --> 01:55:50,375 (Ophuls speaking French) 1013 01:56:01,750 --> 01:56:03,375 (speaking German) 1014 01:56:17,875 --> 01:56:19,000 (speaking French) 1015 01:56:27,667 --> 01:56:29,208 (Faure speaking French) 1016 01:56:39,208 --> 01:56:41,500 (Kranzbuehler speaking German) 1017 01:57:00,750 --> 01:57:02,542 Geoffrey Lawrence: "Is glad." 1018 01:57:09,583 --> 01:57:12,417 "Is glad." No? 1019 01:57:16,375 --> 01:57:18,917 No? "The Tribunal is glad... 1020 01:57:22,500 --> 01:57:25,500 that, uh, defendant's counsel..." 1021 01:57:25,500 --> 01:57:27,583 (mutters) Oh, he can't hear. 1022 01:57:29,208 --> 01:57:31,542 Uh, "The Tribunal is glad that," uh-- 1023 01:57:31,542 --> 01:57:33,667 (Kranzbuehler speaking German) 1024 01:57:44,125 --> 01:57:47,458 Lawrence: Uh... Give him the microphone. 1025 01:57:47,458 --> 01:57:50,083 Give him the microphone, will you? 1026 01:57:51,708 --> 01:57:53,166 Can you hear me now? 1027 01:57:55,792 --> 01:57:57,792 Can you hear me now? Ja wohl. 1028 01:57:57,792 --> 01:58:02,708 Lawrence: Tribunal will consider the best method 1029 01:58:02,708 --> 01:58:06,417 of providing defendant's counsel 1030 01:58:06,417 --> 01:58:09,792 with as many translations as possible. 1031 01:58:09,792 --> 01:58:11,375 (Kranzbuehler speaking German) 1032 01:58:17,291 --> 01:58:19,125 (Faure speaking French) 1033 01:58:43,375 --> 01:58:48,291 Lawrence: And all those details are really unnecessary. 1034 01:58:49,417 --> 01:58:51,917 Smith Brookhart: Very well, sir. 1035 01:58:51,917 --> 01:58:54,542 Your Honor, please... 1036 01:58:54,542 --> 01:58:59,500 this witness does furnish a complete story 1037 01:58:59,500 --> 01:59:06,458 from the head office to the Final Solution. Uh... 1038 01:59:06,458 --> 01:59:10,208 Lawrence: Well, what is he going to prove about these 50,000 Jews? 1039 01:59:10,208 --> 01:59:14,291 Brookhart: Their ultimate disposition, sir, as far as he knows. 1040 01:59:14,291 --> 01:59:15,875 Lawrence: What is he going to prove? 1041 01:59:15,875 --> 01:59:20,083 Brookhart: Their ultimate disposition at Auschwitz, as far as he knows. 1042 01:59:20,083 --> 01:59:21,625 Lawrence: Well, you can go on to-- 1043 01:59:21,625 --> 01:59:24,250 to what ultimately happened to them, then. Brookhart: Yes, sir. 1044 01:59:24,250 --> 01:59:26,375 (speaking French) 1045 01:59:32,375 --> 01:59:34,417 (speaking French) 1046 01:59:38,083 --> 01:59:39,708 (Kranzbuehler speaks German) 1047 02:00:36,333 --> 02:00:38,166 (speaking French) 1048 02:01:02,166 --> 02:01:05,875 Jackson: After you came to power, you regarded as necessary, 1049 02:01:05,875 --> 02:01:11,333 in order to maintain power, that you suppress all opposition parties. 1050 02:01:15,291 --> 02:01:19,166 (Goering interrupts in German) That is correct-- 1051 02:01:19,166 --> 02:01:22,500 Shawcross: Jackson was quite unused to cross-examination, 1052 02:01:22,500 --> 02:01:26,375 and he used the occasion, as he had hoped, 1053 02:01:26,375 --> 02:01:29,542 in order to establish a number of principles. 1054 02:01:29,542 --> 02:01:35,542 Well, you don't do that by cross-examining, um, a hostile witness, 1055 02:01:35,542 --> 02:01:39,375 and the result was that the cross-examination, um, 1056 02:01:39,375 --> 02:01:42,708 became extremely ineffective and woolly. 1057 02:01:42,708 --> 02:01:44,041 (speaks French) 1058 02:02:01,166 --> 02:02:06,000 Jackson: The difficulty is that the Tribunal loses control of these proceedings 1059 02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:09,375 if the defendant, in a case of this kind, 1060 02:02:09,375 --> 02:02:15,417 where we all know, uh, propaganda is one of the purposes of the defendants, 1061 02:02:15,417 --> 02:02:18,375 is permitted to put his propaganda in, 1062 02:02:18,375 --> 02:02:20,166 and then we have to meet it afterwards. 1063 02:02:20,166 --> 02:02:25,917 Lawrence: Surely-- Surely, it's making too much of a, a sentence, 1064 02:02:25,917 --> 02:02:27,917 which the witness has said, 1065 02:02:27,917 --> 02:02:32,041 about whether the United States makes its, uh, 1066 02:02:32,041 --> 02:02:35,083 mobilization orders public or not. 1067 02:02:35,083 --> 02:02:39,208 Surely, that's not a matter of any very great importance. 1068 02:02:39,208 --> 02:02:43,125 The defendant ought not to have, 1069 02:02:43,125 --> 02:02:45,375 uh, referred to the United States, 1070 02:02:45,375 --> 02:02:50,291 but it is a, a matter which I think you might well ignore. 1071 02:02:50,291 --> 02:02:51,917 Jackson: Let me say that I agree with Your Honor 1072 02:02:51,917 --> 02:02:54,291 that, as far as the United States is concerned, 1073 02:02:54,291 --> 02:02:58,458 we're not worried about anything this witness can say about us. 1074 02:02:58,458 --> 02:03:00,291 (speaks French) 1075 02:03:14,625 --> 02:03:16,417 The position was picked up 1076 02:03:16,417 --> 02:03:19,708 by a more experienced cross-examiner the next day, 1077 02:03:19,708 --> 02:03:22,250 by my deputy, David Maxwell Fyfe, 1078 02:03:22,250 --> 02:03:28,083 who subjected, um, Goering to a very damaging cross-examination, 1079 02:03:28,083 --> 02:03:30,208 which had been carefully prepared overnight 1080 02:03:30,208 --> 02:03:34,708 in the light of Jackson's own, uh, lack of success. 1081 02:03:34,708 --> 02:03:39,125 Would you look at document D-5-6-9? 1082 02:03:39,125 --> 02:03:42,667 First at the top left-hand corner, 1083 02:03:42,667 --> 02:03:46,792 which shows that it is a document 1084 02:03:46,792 --> 02:03:51,208 published by the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht. 1085 02:03:51,208 --> 02:03:53,834 (Goering speaking German) 1086 02:04:02,417 --> 02:04:04,500 Uh, I'm so-- I'm sorry. 1087 02:04:04,500 --> 02:04:06,500 They've given you the, the wrong one. 1088 02:04:06,500 --> 02:04:08,625 Bring back the document. Let me have it. 1089 02:04:08,625 --> 02:04:13,542 It's a document dated 22nd of November, 1941. (Goering speaks German) 1090 02:04:16,708 --> 02:04:18,250 Have you got it? Goering: Ja wohl. 1091 02:04:18,250 --> 02:04:22,000 He only asked questions to which he knew the answers 1092 02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:24,917 and knew that Goering would have to give those answers, 1093 02:04:24,917 --> 02:04:27,542 and that is the secret of all cross-examination. 1094 02:04:27,542 --> 02:04:30,208 Never ask a question unless you know what the answer is. 1095 02:04:30,208 --> 02:04:33,000 Gilbert: He, uh, wanted me, pleaded with me, 1096 02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:36,500 to come to his cell every day, so that he could discuss things. 1097 02:04:36,500 --> 02:04:37,750 He wanted to know, "How did I do?" 1098 02:04:37,750 --> 02:04:40,041 "Did anybody say if I put on a good performance?" 1099 02:04:40,041 --> 02:04:42,208 I said, "Oh, I suppose some said you did." 1100 02:04:42,208 --> 02:04:44,708 And then he said, "You know, one thing I couldn't control," 1101 02:04:44,708 --> 02:04:46,500 and he said this with real annoyance, 1102 02:04:46,500 --> 02:04:50,041 "I couldn't control the shaking of my hand, uh, while I was on the stage, 1103 02:04:50,041 --> 02:04:52,125 but look, it's perfectly steady now." 1104 02:04:52,125 --> 02:04:54,542 (speaking French) 1105 02:04:58,542 --> 02:05:00,500 (speaking German) 1106 02:05:30,125 --> 02:05:33,083 (gong sounds) 1107 02:05:33,083 --> 02:05:36,959 ("Ich Bin Die Marie Von Der Haller-Revue" playing) 1108 02:05:46,875 --> 02:05:48,708 (speaking German) 1109 02:05:54,500 --> 02:05:58,166 ("Ich Bin Die Marie Von Der Haller-Revue" continuing) 1110 02:06:00,625 --> 02:06:04,458 ♪ ♪ 1111 02:06:13,041 --> 02:06:16,625 (motorcycle engine revving) 1112 02:06:17,750 --> 02:06:19,792 (Ophuls speaking German) 1113 02:06:23,625 --> 02:06:25,458 (speaking German) 1114 02:06:26,458 --> 02:06:27,625 (speaking German) Ja. 1115 02:06:28,792 --> 02:06:30,083 Ja. 1116 02:06:41,500 --> 02:06:42,500 (woman speaks German) 1117 02:06:42,500 --> 02:06:45,166 (continues in German) 1118 02:06:45,166 --> 02:06:47,333 (woman speaking German) 1119 02:06:49,333 --> 02:06:50,333 Ja. 1120 02:06:52,500 --> 02:06:54,000 (man speaking German) 1121 02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:57,625 (woman speaking German) 1122 02:06:59,166 --> 02:07:02,333 (" Herr Ober Zwei Mokka" playing) 1123 02:07:02,333 --> 02:07:04,875 (woman speaking German) 1124 02:07:06,583 --> 02:07:08,875 Ophuls: Ja, ja. (woman continuing) 1125 02:07:14,708 --> 02:07:15,875 Ja. 1126 02:07:19,458 --> 02:07:20,458 Ja. 1127 02:07:20,458 --> 02:07:22,708 ♪ ♪ 1128 02:07:30,792 --> 02:07:32,166 (Ophuls speaking German) 1129 02:07:39,333 --> 02:07:41,708 Ja. (chuckles) 1130 02:07:41,708 --> 02:07:43,542 (Ophuls speaking German) 1131 02:07:58,583 --> 02:07:59,625 Ja. 1132 02:08:17,125 --> 02:08:21,041 (surveyor calling out in German) 1133 02:08:32,834 --> 02:08:37,792 ("Sag Beim Abschied Leise Servus" playing) 1134 02:09:06,125 --> 02:09:07,625 ♪ ♪ 1135 02:09:37,834 --> 02:09:39,500 ♪ ♪ 1136 02:09:43,708 --> 02:09:48,834 We arrived in Berlin on July the 6th, 1945, 1137 02:09:48,834 --> 02:09:51,542 which, uh, except for billeting officers, 1138 02:09:51,542 --> 02:09:54,834 I think was as early as anybody got there. 1139 02:09:54,834 --> 02:09:58,458 One colleague of mine, also having been in Berlin before, 1140 02:09:58,458 --> 02:10:01,250 couldn't stand just going to bed at that point, 1141 02:10:01,250 --> 02:10:04,875 and we wanted to drive into the center of the city, 1142 02:10:04,875 --> 02:10:09,458 and it was a absolutely ghostly experience. 1143 02:10:09,458 --> 02:10:13,375 (speaking German) 1144 02:10:23,500 --> 02:10:24,834 (laughing) 1145 02:10:28,708 --> 02:10:31,208 Ja. Ja, ja, ja. 1146 02:10:31,208 --> 02:10:32,667 (woman laughing) 1147 02:10:35,667 --> 02:10:39,417 (singing in German) 1148 02:10:39,417 --> 02:10:41,208 ♪ ♪ 1149 02:10:54,959 --> 02:10:57,917 Ophuls: To the German, even today, 1150 02:10:57,917 --> 02:11:01,917 the denazification officer is a hatchet man. 1151 02:11:01,917 --> 02:11:05,000 Uh, yes, I, I can't blame them, 1152 02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:07,917 and I would imagine that there may be some 1153 02:11:07,917 --> 02:11:09,917 who recall me in that stance. 1154 02:11:09,917 --> 02:11:14,041 At the time that I became involved in denazification, 1155 02:11:14,041 --> 02:11:18,291 I was at the age of, uh, 27, I guess, 1156 02:11:18,291 --> 02:11:20,083 and as a second lieutenant, 1157 02:11:20,083 --> 02:11:25,625 the only film, theater and music control officer in Berlin. 1158 02:11:25,625 --> 02:11:28,625 (calls out in German) (people singing in German) 1159 02:11:31,417 --> 02:11:33,125 ♪ ♪ 1160 02:11:38,000 --> 02:11:41,792 Alter: The Russians wanted to have something cultural going on. 1161 02:11:41,792 --> 02:11:45,625 From the very beginning, that is, from before the time that we got to Berlin, 1162 02:11:45,625 --> 02:11:50,333 artists who were appearing in shows or singing or anything, 1163 02:11:50,333 --> 02:11:54,166 had higher ration cards than the ordinary citizen. 1164 02:11:54,166 --> 02:11:56,875 They even got transportation to places, 1165 02:11:56,875 --> 02:11:58,792 so that they could appear there. 1166 02:11:58,792 --> 02:12:01,875 The Russians at that time were very concerned with the suicide rate, 1167 02:12:01,875 --> 02:12:03,542 which had been going up. 1168 02:12:03,542 --> 02:12:09,667 They were quite willing to provide some circuses, where they could, 1169 02:12:09,667 --> 02:12:12,375 in hopes that it would, you know, stem a tide 1170 02:12:12,375 --> 02:12:16,291 of where too many people would simply quit and kill themselves. 1171 02:12:16,291 --> 02:12:19,333 (jazz music playing) 1172 02:12:48,208 --> 02:12:50,333 ♪ ♪ 1173 02:12:57,500 --> 02:12:58,875 We came in there, 1174 02:12:58,875 --> 02:13:02,708 and I think almost everybody came into Germany... 1175 02:13:02,708 --> 02:13:04,250 (coughs) Excuse me. 1176 02:13:04,250 --> 02:13:08,875 ...with the notion that for a decent German 1177 02:13:08,875 --> 02:13:12,041 who had connections in other countries 1178 02:13:12,041 --> 02:13:14,708 to have stayed during the Hitler years, 1179 02:13:14,708 --> 02:13:18,417 alone was a sort of crime, 1180 02:13:18,417 --> 02:13:22,208 and I don't think that this was ever put into any law, 1181 02:13:22,208 --> 02:13:25,208 but it was an attitude. Ophuls: An assumption. 1182 02:13:25,208 --> 02:13:28,250 An assumption that went through the entire process 1183 02:13:28,250 --> 02:13:32,583 of vetting people and licensing people and letting them be active. 1184 02:13:32,583 --> 02:13:37,417 Prior to leaving Austria, it was in 1939, 1185 02:13:37,417 --> 02:13:43,583 I had been a student at the state academy in Vienna, primarily in directing, 1186 02:13:43,583 --> 02:13:47,542 and was back in 1945 with the responsibility 1187 02:13:47,542 --> 02:13:50,500 to make some judgments in, in this area, 1188 02:13:50,500 --> 02:13:53,750 frequently on people whom I had known personally. 1189 02:13:53,750 --> 02:13:56,208 (applauding) 1190 02:14:04,583 --> 02:14:07,375 (soft piano music plays) 1191 02:14:07,375 --> 02:14:10,750 (boys singing) 1192 02:14:29,291 --> 02:14:32,834 (boys continue singing) 1193 02:14:56,708 --> 02:15:00,834 ♪ ♪ 1194 02:15:04,333 --> 02:15:08,708 The artists who, after all, we are talking about, for the most part, 1195 02:15:08,708 --> 02:15:12,875 when the war started going from bad to worse, 1196 02:15:12,875 --> 02:15:16,834 were expected to work in defense industry. 1197 02:15:16,834 --> 02:15:21,417 Whenever they were not filming, uh, and I think even on the-- 1198 02:15:21,417 --> 02:15:25,959 the theater artists, even on nights where they might be appearing later on the stage, 1199 02:15:25,959 --> 02:15:30,500 were still expected to work in defense work during the day. 1200 02:15:30,500 --> 02:15:34,625 Now, there were four reasons, 1201 02:15:34,625 --> 02:15:41,375 uh, or four ways in which artists, uh, reacted to this order, 1202 02:15:41,375 --> 02:15:47,208 and I would ask you how, uh, given these four motivations, 1203 02:15:47,208 --> 02:15:50,083 you would then discover justice. 1204 02:15:50,083 --> 02:15:55,500 There were Nazis among them, who got themselves excused, 1205 02:15:55,500 --> 02:15:58,291 because they were influential and knew other Nazis 1206 02:15:58,291 --> 02:16:02,542 and didn't like to get up early in the morning and get their hands dirty. 1207 02:16:02,542 --> 02:16:05,834 There were anti-Nazis among them, 1208 02:16:05,834 --> 02:16:11,000 who worked desperately to be excused from defense work, 1209 02:16:11,000 --> 02:16:16,417 because they wanted in no way to support the German war effort. 1210 02:16:16,417 --> 02:16:21,500 There were violent Nazis, who insisted on showing up on the job 1211 02:16:21,500 --> 02:16:25,917 as a demonstration of their loyalty and their sacrifice, 1212 02:16:25,917 --> 02:16:31,166 and, finally, there were anti-Nazis, who insisted on showing up and working 1213 02:16:31,166 --> 02:16:36,291 just so that nobody could say they were taking favors from the government. 1214 02:16:36,291 --> 02:16:41,917 So, the question then becomes, what do you know about that immediately afterwards, 1215 02:16:41,917 --> 02:16:43,834 and how do you deal with it? 1216 02:16:43,834 --> 02:16:47,041 (man narrating in German) 1217 02:17:00,542 --> 02:17:04,083 (chorus singing in German) 1218 02:17:10,166 --> 02:17:13,458 (singing in German) 1219 02:17:20,333 --> 02:17:22,125 ♪ ♪ 1220 02:17:28,625 --> 02:17:31,834 (singing in German) 1221 02:17:39,792 --> 02:17:41,333 (singing in German) 1222 02:17:56,875 --> 02:18:00,125 ♪ ♪ 1223 02:18:00,125 --> 02:18:03,333 (audience applauding) 1224 02:18:04,959 --> 02:18:09,291 Artists are not habitually political fanatics. 1225 02:18:09,291 --> 02:18:11,708 So that you could, for example, have an act-- 1226 02:18:11,708 --> 02:18:15,875 an actor who might see a chance to play King Lear. 1227 02:18:15,875 --> 02:18:19,333 This easily, in his terms, could be more important 1228 02:18:19,333 --> 02:18:22,583 than the German army taking Paris the same week. 1229 02:18:22,583 --> 02:18:25,041 ♪ ♪ 1230 02:18:25,041 --> 02:18:28,041 (man narrating in German) 1231 02:18:37,792 --> 02:18:41,208 ♪ ♪ 1232 02:19:03,917 --> 02:19:06,250 Alter: We have today, in West Germany, a country, 1233 02:19:06,250 --> 02:19:09,458 which is one of the more humane in the world. 1234 02:19:09,458 --> 02:19:12,083 (narrator speaking German) 1235 02:19:12,083 --> 02:19:16,750 Alter: In that sense, we can be quite well-satisfied with ourselves. 1236 02:19:16,750 --> 02:19:20,917 Anybody in a uniform could be counted on, 1237 02:19:20,917 --> 02:19:25,917 uh, on, on being... authoritarian with the public. 1238 02:19:25,917 --> 02:19:28,083 I think you'll find that less today 1239 02:19:28,083 --> 02:19:30,625 than in any country I can think of, except Britain. 1240 02:19:30,625 --> 02:19:32,250 ♪ ♪ 1241 02:19:32,250 --> 02:19:34,250 (man narrating in German) 1242 02:19:40,500 --> 02:19:42,750 ♪ ♪ 1243 02:20:00,375 --> 02:20:02,625 Halt. (music stops) 1244 02:20:04,458 --> 02:20:06,417 (both speaking in German) 1245 02:20:06,417 --> 02:20:08,542 Krause. Krause. 1246 02:20:08,542 --> 02:20:11,625 (speaking indistinctly in German) 1247 02:20:19,917 --> 02:20:22,041 Danke schoen. Bitte schoen. 1248 02:20:22,041 --> 02:20:24,792 (narrator continues in German) 1249 02:20:34,333 --> 02:20:36,458 ♪ ♪ (children laughing) 1250 02:20:37,667 --> 02:20:40,000 (Johanna Kortner speaking German) 1251 02:20:52,291 --> 02:20:54,667 (Ophuls speaking German) 1252 02:20:56,500 --> 02:20:57,959 (speaks German) 1253 02:21:10,041 --> 02:21:13,041 (man narrating in German) 1254 02:21:18,208 --> 02:21:21,542 (Johanna speaking in German) 1255 02:21:32,542 --> 02:21:35,250 (Ophuls speaking in German) 1256 02:22:21,250 --> 02:22:25,417 (Ophuls speaking) Ja, ja, ja. 1257 02:22:30,125 --> 02:22:31,792 (Ophuls speaks) 1258 02:22:41,625 --> 02:22:43,000 (ship horn toots) 1259 02:23:00,917 --> 02:23:03,792 (Ophuls speaks) 1260 02:23:07,625 --> 02:23:09,542 (Ophuls speaks) 1261 02:23:09,542 --> 02:23:11,583 (speaking German) Nein. 1262 02:23:35,333 --> 02:23:37,834 (Ophuls speaks) 1263 02:23:37,834 --> 02:23:39,125 (Johanna speaking) 1264 02:23:53,250 --> 02:23:55,417 (cheering) 1265 02:24:35,208 --> 02:24:37,917 ("Kom, Spiel Mit Mir Blinde Kuh" playing) 1266 02:24:40,458 --> 02:24:42,959 ♪ ♪ 1267 02:24:57,041 --> 02:25:00,875 (Johanna speaking in German) 1268 02:25:37,166 --> 02:25:38,542 (Johanna laughs) 1269 02:25:38,542 --> 02:25:40,625 (speaking German) 1270 02:25:52,500 --> 02:25:54,083 (audience cheering) 1271 02:25:56,708 --> 02:25:59,333 (man narrating in German) 1272 02:26:06,625 --> 02:26:09,333 (audience applauding) 1273 02:26:14,708 --> 02:26:16,834 (applauding loudly) 1274 02:26:19,792 --> 02:26:21,458 (speaking German) 1275 02:26:24,125 --> 02:26:27,166 (man speaking in German) 1276 02:26:48,125 --> 02:26:51,792 Man: Heil! Heil! (crowd) Heil! Heil! 1277 02:26:51,792 --> 02:26:54,583 (stage manager speaking in German) 1278 02:27:20,708 --> 02:27:23,166 (laughter) 1279 02:27:23,166 --> 02:27:26,917 (speaking in German) 1280 02:27:37,291 --> 02:27:39,417 (speaking German) 1281 02:27:42,041 --> 02:27:43,750 (speaking German) 1282 02:27:59,083 --> 02:28:00,750 (Ophuls speaking German) 1283 02:28:09,333 --> 02:28:10,458 Ophuls: Ja. 1284 02:28:29,834 --> 02:28:32,291 (speaking German) 1285 02:28:32,291 --> 02:28:34,458 (laughs, speaks German) 1286 02:28:36,667 --> 02:28:38,625 (speaking German) 1287 02:29:09,542 --> 02:29:11,500 (Ophuls speaking German) 1288 02:29:45,208 --> 02:29:46,250 Ja. 1289 02:29:49,500 --> 02:29:52,667 (actor speaking German) 1290 02:30:01,375 --> 02:30:02,583 (speaking German) 1291 02:30:15,333 --> 02:30:17,291 Ophuls: Frank. Frank. 1292 02:30:20,959 --> 02:30:22,291 (Ophuls speaking) 1293 02:30:46,708 --> 02:30:48,291 (speaking German) 1294 02:31:08,959 --> 02:31:11,250 (speaking German) 1295 02:31:12,458 --> 02:31:13,583 (Ophuls speaking German) 1296 02:31:28,834 --> 02:31:30,792 (man narrating in German) 1297 02:31:34,083 --> 02:31:35,959 (speaking German) 1298 02:31:48,583 --> 02:31:50,333 (narrator speaking German) 1299 02:31:53,458 --> 02:31:55,208 (muffled) Oderbruch. 1300 02:32:22,750 --> 02:32:24,875 (speaking German) 1301 02:32:58,500 --> 02:33:00,458 (speaking German) 1302 02:33:20,750 --> 02:33:23,375 (Roland Freisler speaking German) 1303 02:33:31,083 --> 02:33:32,375 Freisler (shouts): Mord? 1304 02:33:34,875 --> 02:33:39,125 (Freisler shouting in German) 1305 02:33:39,125 --> 02:33:41,458 (Lueben speaking in German) 1306 02:33:52,750 --> 02:33:54,291 (Ophuls speaking German) 1307 02:33:54,291 --> 02:33:56,125 (speaking German) 1308 02:34:08,458 --> 02:34:10,250 (Lueben continues in German) 1309 02:34:26,041 --> 02:34:27,959 (Ophuls speaks) 1310 02:34:27,959 --> 02:34:29,750 (Lueben speaks) 1311 02:34:29,750 --> 02:34:32,333 (Ophuls speaks) 1312 02:34:33,417 --> 02:34:34,834 (speaking French) 1313 02:35:40,542 --> 02:35:42,375 (Ophuls speaks) 1314 02:36:00,792 --> 02:36:01,917 Ophuls: Ja. 1315 02:36:05,083 --> 02:36:07,083 (Ophuls speaks) 1316 02:36:08,917 --> 02:36:10,917 (Ophuls, Lueben chuckling) 1317 02:36:12,208 --> 02:36:14,083 (Lueben speaking) 1318 02:36:18,834 --> 02:36:20,458 Ophuls: Ja. 1319 02:36:35,083 --> 02:36:37,291 (Lueben speaking) 1320 02:36:41,792 --> 02:36:44,625 (Claus speaks German) 1321 02:37:20,166 --> 02:37:21,208 (Ophuls speaks) 1322 02:37:25,291 --> 02:37:26,875 (Claus speaking) 1323 02:38:00,417 --> 02:38:02,375 (Ophuls speaks) 1324 02:38:13,625 --> 02:38:17,375 Man: Now, gentlemen, if you'll raise your right hands 1325 02:38:17,375 --> 02:38:19,792 and take the oath with me. 1326 02:38:19,792 --> 02:38:21,708 ♪ ♪ 1327 02:38:21,708 --> 02:38:24,667 I swear by Almighty God... 1328 02:38:24,667 --> 02:38:27,375 (men repeating oath in German) 1329 02:38:27,375 --> 02:38:30,333 Man: ...that I will at all times... 1330 02:38:30,333 --> 02:38:32,250 (men repeating oath in German) 1331 02:38:32,250 --> 02:38:35,917 ...establish equal justice under the law for all persons. 1332 02:38:35,917 --> 02:38:38,250 (repeating in German) 1333 02:38:40,917 --> 02:38:42,417 ...so help me God. 1334 02:38:42,417 --> 02:38:45,083 (repeating in German) 1335 02:38:45,083 --> 02:38:47,083 ♪ ♪ 1336 02:38:49,417 --> 02:38:53,458 Ophuls: Have you ever felt that prosecuting people for crime 1337 02:38:53,458 --> 02:38:55,917 is somehow persecuting them? 1338 02:38:55,917 --> 02:38:57,625 No, I can't say that I have. 1339 02:38:57,625 --> 02:39:03,000 I have felt that prosecuting anybody for crime, in a sense, is self-righteous. 1340 02:39:03,000 --> 02:39:05,917 And setting oneself up as competent 1341 02:39:05,917 --> 02:39:10,708 to invoke a process of punishment against them... 1342 02:39:10,708 --> 02:39:12,458 there is something distasteful about it. 1343 02:39:12,458 --> 02:39:15,000 I suppose I'd feel the same way if I were a judge. 1344 02:39:15,000 --> 02:39:18,792 The judge must think of his judging as being in the name of principles, 1345 02:39:18,792 --> 02:39:21,291 and not that he is peculiarly equipped, 1346 02:39:21,291 --> 02:39:26,000 but that he is the instrument through which the voice of principle speaks. 1347 02:39:26,000 --> 02:39:28,625 The same thing applies to the prosecutor as to the judge. 1348 02:39:28,625 --> 02:39:30,917 Of course, if other feelings come into it, 1349 02:39:30,917 --> 02:39:34,625 if one does, uh, have a feeling of vengeance... 1350 02:39:34,625 --> 02:39:37,417 and many people have, I think wrongfully, uh, 1351 02:39:37,417 --> 02:39:41,417 accused the Nuremberg prosecutors of being motivated by vengeance... 1352 02:39:41,417 --> 02:39:43,792 uh, then, of course, he does become a persecutor. 1353 02:39:43,792 --> 02:39:45,917 (speaking German) 1354 02:40:02,125 --> 02:40:06,667 The whole fabric of guilt and responsibility is a very intricate and interwoven one, 1355 02:40:06,667 --> 02:40:08,708 and I'm not talking now just about legal guilt, 1356 02:40:08,708 --> 02:40:11,166 which you can be convicted of a crime on, but, uh, 1357 02:40:11,166 --> 02:40:13,083 the degree of your association, knowledge, 1358 02:40:13,083 --> 02:40:15,542 the way that you yourself may feel responsible. 1359 02:40:15,542 --> 02:40:17,834 (speaking German) 1360 02:40:55,250 --> 02:40:57,917 ♪ ♪ 1361 02:40:59,708 --> 02:41:01,875 (man narrating in German) 1362 02:41:10,959 --> 02:41:14,166 (Warlimont speaking in German) 1363 02:41:27,083 --> 02:41:29,875 (narrator speaking in German) 1364 02:41:48,041 --> 02:41:49,792 (Warlimont speaking in German) 1365 02:41:58,000 --> 02:41:59,959 (Ophuls speaking German) 1366 02:42:11,708 --> 02:42:15,625 Ellsberg: B. H. Liddell Hart had interviewed German generals after the war. 1367 02:42:15,625 --> 02:42:19,375 When he asked them why they had not resisted Hitler in the earlier days, 1368 02:42:19,375 --> 02:42:22,792 he was very struck by the importance in their minds, 1369 02:42:22,792 --> 02:42:25,625 that they had teenage sons 1370 02:42:25,625 --> 02:42:28,291 who had to be supported through college. 1371 02:42:28,291 --> 02:42:30,583 They were men without independent means, 1372 02:42:30,583 --> 02:42:34,250 who could not afford to lose their jobs lest they, uh, 1373 02:42:34,250 --> 02:42:38,291 lose this ticket to the elite, to status, for their children. 1374 02:42:38,291 --> 02:42:39,750 (man speaking German) 1375 02:42:42,125 --> 02:42:43,208 (speaking German) 1376 02:43:12,667 --> 02:43:14,875 Keitel was the stereotype of a German general. 1377 02:43:14,875 --> 02:43:18,250 He was a big, handsome man who looked well in uniform, 1378 02:43:18,250 --> 02:43:21,583 uh, very arrogant, direct bearing, and all that. 1379 02:43:21,583 --> 02:43:25,917 He was so rigidly observant of the military code 1380 02:43:25,917 --> 02:43:29,208 that he recognized my rank as captain 1381 02:43:29,208 --> 02:43:32,000 as superior to his because he didn't have any rank, 1382 02:43:32,000 --> 02:43:35,542 and he always stood up at attention to greet me when I came into the cell. 1383 02:43:35,542 --> 02:43:37,208 (speaking German) 1384 02:44:17,500 --> 02:44:21,792 And I was, myself, both surprised and moved when I heard him say that. 1385 02:44:24,708 --> 02:44:26,917 Gilbert: And I went to the cells to see 1386 02:44:26,917 --> 02:44:32,500 whether there was any danger of any suicide attempt or anything like that. 1387 02:44:32,500 --> 02:44:35,208 And Keitel said... 1388 02:44:36,959 --> 02:44:39,000 just gray with horror, 1389 02:44:39,000 --> 02:44:42,542 "I have been sentenced to death by hanging. 1390 02:44:42,542 --> 02:44:45,750 The hanging, at least, I didn't deserve." 1391 02:44:45,750 --> 02:44:50,291 And he showed me that he was sending an appeal to the Tribunal 1392 02:44:50,291 --> 02:44:53,667 to let him have death by a firing squad. 1393 02:44:53,667 --> 02:44:56,458 And then, turning to me, he said, 1394 02:44:56,458 --> 02:44:59,583 "Captain, I know that it must be humiliating for you 1395 02:44:59,583 --> 02:45:04,333 to be standing in the same cell as a man who has been condemned to death by hanging." 1396 02:45:04,333 --> 02:45:07,792 Vengeance is not our goal, 1397 02:45:07,792 --> 02:45:11,000 nor do we seek merely a just retribution. 1398 02:45:13,083 --> 02:45:15,417 We ask this court to affirm 1399 02:45:15,417 --> 02:45:19,250 man's right to live in peace and dignity, 1400 02:45:19,250 --> 02:45:21,875 regardless of his race or creed. 1401 02:45:21,875 --> 02:45:24,542 I was required to enter the concentration camps 1402 02:45:24,542 --> 02:45:26,083 as they were being liberated, 1403 02:45:26,083 --> 02:45:29,083 for the purpose of capturing the alleged war criminals. Ophuls: Yes. 1404 02:45:29,083 --> 02:45:31,417 Ferencz: We had a long list of war crime suspects. 1405 02:45:31,417 --> 02:45:34,333 I had never seen human beings in that condition, 1406 02:45:34,333 --> 02:45:37,333 where you couldn't tell if the people were dead or alive. 1407 02:45:37,333 --> 02:45:39,166 So I don't think the term "vengeance" is correct, 1408 02:45:39,166 --> 02:45:44,458 but surely, I was not immune from an emotional response to what I had seen. 1409 02:45:44,458 --> 02:45:47,208 (man narrating) Local townspeople visit the Ohrdruf camp, 1410 02:45:47,208 --> 02:45:49,792 including prominent Nazi Party members. 1411 02:45:49,792 --> 02:45:54,917 They'll be taken on a forced tour of the campsite by Colonel Hayden Sears. 1412 02:45:54,917 --> 02:45:57,875 Colonel Sears stands by as the Nazis are informed 1413 02:45:57,875 --> 02:46:01,000 that they must see all the horrors at the camp. 1414 02:46:01,000 --> 02:46:02,834 Ophuls: What was the rationale behind that? 1415 02:46:02,834 --> 02:46:05,166 Ferencz: Well, it was really so horrible, 1416 02:46:05,166 --> 02:46:10,625 uh, that it was a form of punishment to even be an observer of it, 1417 02:46:10,625 --> 02:46:13,959 and, uh... since many of the Germans professed, 1418 02:46:13,959 --> 02:46:15,875 you know, ignorance of what had happened, 1419 02:46:15,875 --> 02:46:18,458 this was a means of showing them what had happened, 1420 02:46:18,458 --> 02:46:21,708 uh, so they would see it, and perhaps be shocked by it. 1421 02:46:21,708 --> 02:46:23,375 But was this a method of punishment 1422 02:46:23,375 --> 02:46:26,375 as an act of vengeance or was it more rational? 1423 02:46:26,375 --> 02:46:32,208 Uh, you know, uh, there wasn't very much reason, uh, in those days. 1424 02:46:32,208 --> 02:46:36,708 When you come into a camp, uh, you don't react very rationally. 1425 02:46:36,708 --> 02:46:38,375 You can rationalize it later. 1426 02:46:38,375 --> 02:46:41,000 Narrator: The day before these Nazis visited the camp, 1427 02:46:41,000 --> 02:46:43,959 the Burgermeister of Ohrdruf was forced to view the horrors. 1428 02:46:43,959 --> 02:46:49,041 He and his wife were later found dead in their home, apparently suicides. 1429 02:46:51,083 --> 02:46:57,083 Alter: Under the initial tension of simply having wound up the war, 1430 02:46:57,083 --> 02:47:00,625 I think I probably was all for doing this. 1431 02:47:00,625 --> 02:47:05,208 Subsequently, I am sure, as happened in other areas, 1432 02:47:05,208 --> 02:47:09,583 I would have probably said that many of the people 1433 02:47:09,583 --> 02:47:12,542 who will be forced to look at this footage 1434 02:47:12,542 --> 02:47:14,166 don't really deserve to, 1435 02:47:14,166 --> 02:47:18,583 and the people who did bear responsibility for it, uh, 1436 02:47:18,583 --> 02:47:21,208 probably were able to look at it 1437 02:47:21,208 --> 02:47:24,291 without getting the shock that the rest of us got. 1438 02:47:24,291 --> 02:47:28,667 Goering, of course, as you might expect, 1439 02:47:28,667 --> 02:47:31,458 had the most cynical reaction of all, 1440 02:47:31,458 --> 02:47:36,917 that the atrocity films had disturbed a great morning's performance, 1441 02:47:36,917 --> 02:47:40,125 where there was a lot of levity and some wisecracks, and then he said, 1442 02:47:40,125 --> 02:47:43,750 "No, then that damn film came along, and spoiled everything." 1443 02:47:43,750 --> 02:47:46,959 Robert Jackson: You did prohibit all court review 1444 02:47:46,959 --> 02:47:49,625 of the causes for taking people 1445 02:47:49,625 --> 02:47:52,792 into what you call "protective custody." That is right, isn't it? 1446 02:47:52,792 --> 02:47:54,750 (speaking German) 1447 02:47:56,542 --> 02:47:58,458 Jackson: Yes. Uh... 1448 02:48:00,291 --> 02:48:02,625 When it was state necessity to kill somebody, 1449 02:48:02,625 --> 02:48:05,417 you had to have somebody to do it, didn't you? 1450 02:48:06,750 --> 02:48:08,458 (Goering speaks German) 1451 02:48:11,792 --> 02:48:15,500 Shawcross: Goering was a dominating figure. 1452 02:48:15,500 --> 02:48:17,542 He'd lost a lot of weight. 1453 02:48:17,542 --> 02:48:21,708 His, um, uniform fitted very loosely. 1454 02:48:21,708 --> 02:48:23,166 He was off drugs. 1455 02:48:23,166 --> 02:48:26,583 He sat at the end of the dock, and one realized at once 1456 02:48:26,583 --> 02:48:28,959 that he was a very strong personality. 1457 02:48:28,959 --> 02:48:31,041 And one also realized, I think, 1458 02:48:31,041 --> 02:48:35,500 that although he'd done terrible and evil things, 1459 02:48:35,500 --> 02:48:37,834 he had a sense of humor. 1460 02:48:37,834 --> 02:48:39,208 (Faure speaking French) 1461 02:48:55,667 --> 02:48:57,875 (Goering speaking German) 1462 02:49:08,041 --> 02:49:10,208 (Speer speaking German) 1463 02:49:44,000 --> 02:49:46,083 (speaking French) 1464 02:49:55,917 --> 02:49:58,708 (Ophuls speaking French) 1465 02:50:10,917 --> 02:50:13,583 Goering was very proud of having, 1466 02:50:13,583 --> 02:50:18,542 uh, attained the highest IQ up to the time that I tested him, 1467 02:50:18,542 --> 02:50:20,417 and he said that, uh, this was a proof 1468 02:50:20,417 --> 02:50:24,959 that they were very brilliant, uh, instruments of measurement. 1469 02:50:24,959 --> 02:50:30,583 Then later, when he heard that Hjalmar Schacht got several points higher IQ than he, 1470 02:50:30,583 --> 02:50:33,125 he said, "Oh, these American tests are a bunch of baloney. 1471 02:50:33,125 --> 02:50:36,417 That doesn't mean anything. Nobody has to tell me how smart I am." 1472 02:50:36,417 --> 02:50:38,959 (speaking German) 1473 02:50:40,333 --> 02:50:42,959 He threatened Speer with murder by 1474 02:50:42,959 --> 02:50:46,750 a kangaroo court for daring to depart from the party line. 1475 02:50:46,750 --> 02:50:48,917 (speaking German) 1476 02:50:50,458 --> 02:50:52,125 Lawrence: You may sit down. 1477 02:50:52,125 --> 02:50:54,083 There's no translation coming through... 1478 02:50:54,083 --> 02:50:55,625 Gilbert: Speer was going to testify 1479 02:50:55,625 --> 02:50:58,250 to the actual guilt of the Nazi regime, 1480 02:50:58,250 --> 02:51:02,208 and Goering's reaction was, "Damn that fool! 1481 02:51:02,208 --> 02:51:05,500 He's deliberately selling out to save his lousy neck." 1482 02:51:05,500 --> 02:51:09,166 And, uh, the next day at lunch, he, uh, he said, 1483 02:51:09,166 --> 02:51:13,417 "The best defense is to tell the enemy that it's none of their goddamn business 1484 02:51:13,417 --> 02:51:17,000 and I will confine my defense to just three simple words, 1485 02:51:17,000 --> 02:51:18,542 'Lick my ass.'" 1486 02:51:18,542 --> 02:51:23,000 (speaking German) 1487 02:51:53,208 --> 02:51:55,834 (man speaking in German) 1488 02:52:10,542 --> 02:52:11,792 Ophuls: Ja, ja. 1489 02:52:11,792 --> 02:52:13,208 (museum guard speaking) 1490 02:52:14,917 --> 02:52:18,333 ♪ ♪ 1491 02:52:22,875 --> 02:52:24,875 (Ophuls speaks German) (speaking German) 1492 02:52:24,875 --> 02:52:26,250 (Ophuls speaks German) 1493 02:52:28,166 --> 02:52:29,792 (Ophuls speaks) 1494 02:52:41,750 --> 02:52:44,083 (Ophuls speaks) 1495 02:52:52,250 --> 02:52:53,291 (Ophuls speaks) 1496 02:52:54,417 --> 02:52:55,458 (speaking German) 1497 02:52:57,959 --> 02:53:00,208 (Ophuls speaks) 1498 02:53:33,708 --> 02:53:37,792 ♪ ♪ 1499 02:53:37,792 --> 02:53:40,458 Menuhin: We came to Germany with a great respect 1500 02:53:40,458 --> 02:53:43,208 for, uh, the people that had, uh, 1501 02:53:43,208 --> 02:53:49,125 given birth to so rich a civilization in the arts and in music. 1502 02:53:49,125 --> 02:53:51,458 I always came in autumn, 1503 02:53:51,458 --> 02:53:57,166 and there was something wonderful about walking in the woods in Heidelberg, 1504 02:53:57,166 --> 02:54:03,000 um, or in, uh, the smell of the sea in, in Hamburg. 1505 02:54:03,000 --> 02:54:06,000 I was quite fond of my tours in Germany as a boy, 1506 02:54:06,000 --> 02:54:09,667 but when, uh, Hitler came into power in Germany, 1507 02:54:09,667 --> 02:54:15,458 I severed all contact with Germany and didn't return until after the war. 1508 02:54:17,041 --> 02:54:20,500 (speaking German) 1509 02:54:37,083 --> 02:54:41,250 Uh, Berlin was quite a fascinating place to be in in those days. 1510 02:54:41,250 --> 02:54:42,917 Ophuls: That was in what year? 1511 02:54:42,917 --> 02:54:44,792 In 1929. Ophuls: Mm-hmm. 1512 02:54:44,792 --> 02:54:49,208 It was the-- Perhaps the musical capital of the world at the time. 1513 02:54:49,208 --> 02:54:52,041 Ophuls: How old were you when you first came to Germany? 1514 02:54:52,041 --> 02:54:53,417 Menuhin: Thirteen. 1515 02:54:53,417 --> 02:54:57,000 We always traveled as a group, my parents and sisters. 1516 02:54:57,000 --> 02:55:00,500 I remember coming to know Bruno Walter, 1517 02:55:00,500 --> 02:55:02,083 meeting Einstein, 1518 02:55:02,083 --> 02:55:07,542 and of course, the excitement of my first concert at the Philharmonic 1519 02:55:07,542 --> 02:55:09,083 and the success it had. 1520 02:55:09,083 --> 02:55:11,250 (speaking German) 1521 02:55:26,625 --> 02:55:30,250 Menuhin: The old Steinplatz Pension, where we lived, 1522 02:55:30,250 --> 02:55:33,959 where I was amazed at the relics of the previous war, 1523 02:55:33,959 --> 02:55:37,750 as they were borne on the silverware, 1524 02:55:37,750 --> 02:55:42,333 which was already stamped, as if in anticipation of another disaster... 1525 02:55:42,333 --> 02:55:45,291 gestohlen from Pension Steinplatz. 1526 02:55:45,291 --> 02:55:48,375 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking in French) 1527 02:57:01,667 --> 02:57:05,792 ♪ ♪ 1528 02:57:25,333 --> 02:57:26,417 (Ophuls speaking French) 1529 02:57:29,875 --> 02:57:31,875 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking) 1530 02:57:47,041 --> 02:57:49,417 (speaking German) 1531 02:58:01,000 --> 02:58:05,083 (man singing in German) 1532 02:58:05,083 --> 02:58:08,417 ♪ ♪ 1533 02:58:16,667 --> 02:58:17,792 (Kehrl speaking in German) 1534 02:58:19,917 --> 02:58:23,166 (Ophuls speaking in German) (Kehrl speaking in German) 1535 02:58:23,166 --> 02:58:24,333 (Ophuls speaks) 1536 02:58:24,333 --> 02:58:26,750 (Kehrl speaks) 1537 02:58:42,375 --> 02:58:46,917 (Ophuls speaks German) Ja. 1538 02:58:52,208 --> 02:58:54,125 (Lueben speaking German) 1539 02:59:17,417 --> 02:59:19,291 (Hitler shouting in German) 1540 02:59:26,417 --> 02:59:27,542 (indistinct yelling in German) 1541 02:59:28,875 --> 02:59:30,375 (Ophuls speaking in German) 1542 02:59:35,208 --> 02:59:36,333 (speaking German) 1543 02:59:39,375 --> 02:59:40,500 (Ophuls speaks German) 1544 02:59:45,834 --> 02:59:49,500 (Paul Koerner speaks German) 1545 02:59:49,500 --> 02:59:51,792 Jackson: Such as fining them a billion Reichsmarks? 1546 02:59:51,792 --> 02:59:55,708 Is that what you mean? Right after these outrages? 1547 02:59:55,708 --> 02:59:57,333 You know that he did that, don't you? 1548 02:59:57,333 --> 03:00:00,000 (Koerner speaks German) 1549 03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:03,208 Jackson: Uh. You know that the fuhrer is dead, don't you? 1550 03:00:03,208 --> 03:00:05,208 (speaking German) 1551 03:00:06,583 --> 03:00:09,041 (Speer speaking in German) 1552 03:00:50,959 --> 03:00:54,750 Jackson: On the 12th of November, 1938, you published a decree 1553 03:00:54,750 --> 03:01:00,250 imposing a fine of a billion marks for atonement on all Jews. 1554 03:01:01,250 --> 03:01:03,917 (Goering speaking German) 1555 03:01:07,875 --> 03:01:10,875 The last thing I remember him telling me was, 1556 03:01:10,875 --> 03:01:12,208 "Wait, you will see. 1557 03:01:12,208 --> 03:01:15,750 I will still have my picture in the German history books." 1558 03:01:15,750 --> 03:01:17,291 (speaking French) 1559 03:02:02,542 --> 03:02:04,458 (speaking German) 1560 03:02:17,834 --> 03:02:19,667 (speaking French) 1561 03:02:22,291 --> 03:02:24,208 (Goering speaking in German) 1562 03:02:32,291 --> 03:02:36,458 Nuremberg was an illustration on an international level 1563 03:02:36,458 --> 03:02:39,083 of whether there is such a thing as international morality, 1564 03:02:39,083 --> 03:02:43,583 and of course, Goering had plenty of nose-thumbing to do at me over that. 1565 03:02:43,583 --> 03:02:45,708 He said, "Oh, of course, the people don't want war, 1566 03:02:45,708 --> 03:02:47,875 but what the hell have they got to say about it?" 1567 03:02:47,875 --> 03:02:50,917 I said, "Now, wait a minute. In a democracy, uh, the-- 1568 03:02:50,917 --> 03:02:53,708 only the people through their representatives can declare war. 1569 03:02:53,708 --> 03:02:59,375 There's no dictator who can, uh, uh, just declare, for his own, uh, ambition 1570 03:02:59,375 --> 03:03:02,291 that the, uh, the nation will be plunged into war." 1571 03:03:02,291 --> 03:03:05,041 Of course, at that time, I didn't know about Vietnam. 1572 03:03:05,041 --> 03:03:11,458 But anyway, uh, I did ask that question, and I, uh, got the following answer. 1573 03:03:11,458 --> 03:03:15,542 "Well, it makes no difference whether it's a democracy or a dictatorship or anything. 1574 03:03:15,542 --> 03:03:18,750 "All you have to do is tell the people they're being attacked, 1575 03:03:18,750 --> 03:03:23,333 "and you throw the pacifists into jail for threatening the security of the nation, 1576 03:03:23,333 --> 03:03:27,208 and then, they'll all clamor for war. It's as easy as that." 1577 03:03:27,208 --> 03:03:31,667 Now to give the devil his due, the cynic was partly right. 1578 03:03:39,250 --> 03:03:42,458 (Goering speaking German) 1579 03:03:47,959 --> 03:03:49,291 (gavel pounds) 1580 03:03:49,291 --> 03:03:51,583 Lawrence: I informed the court 1581 03:03:51,583 --> 03:03:56,708 that defendants were not entitled to make a statement. 1582 03:03:56,708 --> 03:03:59,917 You must plead guilty or not guilty. 1583 03:03:59,917 --> 03:04:02,875 (speaking German) 1584 03:04:02,875 --> 03:04:04,583 Man: Um, they were trying the Germans. 1585 03:04:04,583 --> 03:04:06,708 Ophuls: And where was it? Students: Nuremberg. 1586 03:04:06,708 --> 03:04:11,583 And from what I've read about 'em, a lot of it was not done... properly. 1587 03:04:11,583 --> 03:04:13,583 Ophuls: Is that what you've read, too, Phil? 1588 03:04:13,583 --> 03:04:16,458 Sure, sure, that's the general conception, sure. 1589 03:04:16,458 --> 03:04:20,375 With, with the victors really just totally outraged 1590 03:04:20,375 --> 03:04:22,750 by everything that had happened and, 1591 03:04:22,750 --> 03:04:25,792 and sort of morally blinded by it, maybe, or something like that. 1592 03:04:25,792 --> 03:04:27,542 So... Woman: What happened? 1593 03:04:27,542 --> 03:04:30,917 Um, well, we were talking about alleged war crimes, and things like that. 1594 03:04:30,917 --> 03:04:35,458 And unfairly, because it was, uh, a unilateral trial. 1595 03:04:35,458 --> 03:04:39,417 It wasn't a trial of the Americans, who had also committed war crimes. 1596 03:04:39,417 --> 03:04:40,750 I guess I was aware 1597 03:04:40,750 --> 03:04:43,583 that this was restricted to the prosecution of Axis criminals. 1598 03:04:43,583 --> 03:04:49,750 That, uh, it didn't therefore cause us to scrutinize our own conduct, 1599 03:04:49,750 --> 03:04:53,917 the way we would have had to if it had been a two-way street instead of a one-way street. 1600 03:04:53,917 --> 03:04:55,542 In the Einsatzgruppen trial, 1601 03:04:55,542 --> 03:04:59,417 in which, uh, the defendants were SS men who, uh, went to the Eastern Front, 1602 03:04:59,417 --> 03:05:03,875 and picked up all the Jews and commissars and, uh, and slaughtered them... 1603 03:05:03,875 --> 03:05:07,458 uh, in that trial, defense counsel brought up 1604 03:05:07,458 --> 03:05:09,667 the bombing of Hiroshima and said, 1605 03:05:09,667 --> 03:05:14,792 "If that is not criminal, what is worse, after all, about, uh, 1606 03:05:14,792 --> 03:05:16,542 about what we did in the Soviet Union?" 1607 03:05:16,542 --> 03:05:20,166 So at that stage, one, one had to start thinking about it, if you hadn't already. 1608 03:05:20,166 --> 03:05:23,500 What is to be said, even against the World War II, and was said 1609 03:05:23,500 --> 03:05:29,500 by Jews like Milton Mayer, who were, who were, uh, anti-war at that time, was, 1610 03:05:29,500 --> 03:05:32,333 "This war, whatever can be said for it, 1611 03:05:32,333 --> 03:05:36,500 will cause us to become monstrous like the monster we are fighting." 1612 03:05:36,500 --> 03:05:40,250 I very clearly remember a very, very uneasy reaction 1613 03:05:40,250 --> 03:05:44,834 to Truman's tone in announcing the atom bombs on Japan. 1614 03:05:44,834 --> 03:05:47,542 It seemed to me that his, his exuberance at employing 1615 03:05:47,542 --> 03:05:54,125 "the power of the sun," as he put it, on human beings was, um, not right. 1616 03:05:54,125 --> 03:05:56,708 (booming) 1617 03:06:02,250 --> 03:06:06,959 Robert Jay Lifton: From that one second in time comes a lifetime experience, 1618 03:06:06,959 --> 03:06:09,333 a lifelong encounter with death. 1619 03:06:09,333 --> 03:06:11,083 With the survivors I interviewed, 1620 03:06:11,083 --> 03:06:14,417 a lifelong sense of being a tainted people, 1621 03:06:14,417 --> 03:06:20,250 a tainted group of atomic bomb survivors, something like outcasts. 1622 03:06:21,417 --> 03:06:23,959 Ophuls: Do the victims feel guilty? 1623 03:06:23,959 --> 03:06:25,208 The victims do feel guilty. 1624 03:06:25,208 --> 03:06:27,917 They always do with any holocaust. 1625 03:06:27,917 --> 03:06:29,041 Ophuls: Why? 1626 03:06:30,250 --> 03:06:31,750 Prob-- There are several reasons, 1627 03:06:31,750 --> 03:06:33,333 but I think the most overwhelming 1628 03:06:33,333 --> 03:06:38,417 and the central reason is the classical question of the survivor. 1629 03:06:38,417 --> 03:06:41,959 "Why did I live, while he, she, or they died?" 1630 03:06:41,959 --> 03:06:44,667 And in Hiroshima, that was a staggering kind of question. 1631 03:06:44,667 --> 03:06:46,542 They also had a sense of shame, 1632 03:06:46,542 --> 03:06:50,250 because if you had been a victim of the A-bomb, 1633 03:06:50,250 --> 03:06:53,500 you had, a lot of times, diseases that were very mysterious, 1634 03:06:53,500 --> 03:06:57,875 and that, therefore, you wanted to keep it a secret that you had been a victim. 1635 03:06:57,875 --> 03:06:59,166 Tied in with feeling-- 1636 03:06:59,166 --> 03:07:01,166 the feelings of shame that Betty mentioned, 1637 03:07:01,166 --> 03:07:07,834 one is ashamed that one has had to be so brutalized and humiliated by this event. 1638 03:07:07,834 --> 03:07:09,625 Ophuls: Can you imagine a situation 1639 03:07:09,625 --> 03:07:13,750 where the United States might conceivably be wrong? 1640 03:07:14,792 --> 03:07:16,875 Personally, I can't. (chuckles) 1641 03:07:16,875 --> 03:07:19,959 Uh, not from looking at history, 1642 03:07:19,959 --> 03:07:22,500 from the past in the United States, forward to today. 1643 03:07:22,500 --> 03:07:25,834 ♪ ♪ But in the Marine Corps hymn, 1644 03:07:25,834 --> 03:07:28,708 I believe it's the third stanza, 1645 03:07:28,708 --> 03:07:31,792 the words are to the effect that the streets of heaven 1646 03:07:31,792 --> 03:07:34,875 are guarded by the United States Marines, 1647 03:07:34,875 --> 03:07:39,792 and it goes on, if the Army and the Navy ever get to heaven's shores, 1648 03:07:39,792 --> 03:07:43,542 they'll find the streets are guarded by the United States Marines. 1649 03:07:43,542 --> 03:07:46,000 ♪ ♪ 1650 03:07:46,000 --> 03:07:49,041 Ophuls: Your husband was killed in Vietnam? 1651 03:07:49,041 --> 03:07:52,291 It was in May of 1968. 1652 03:07:52,291 --> 03:07:56,333 He had gone over in August the year before. 1653 03:07:56,333 --> 03:08:00,458 My husband felt that, I suppose, it was entirely possible 1654 03:08:00,458 --> 03:08:03,500 that he would lose his life in the service of his country, 1655 03:08:03,500 --> 03:08:07,125 and he really believed that he would continue in the Marine Corps 1656 03:08:07,125 --> 03:08:10,083 when he was in heaven. Uh... 1657 03:08:10,083 --> 03:08:11,834 Ophuls: Well, does this sort of assume also, 1658 03:08:11,834 --> 03:08:14,500 that God is on the side of the Marines? 1659 03:08:14,500 --> 03:08:16,625 I certainly hope he is. (chuckles) 1660 03:08:16,625 --> 03:08:21,667 Uh, Louise and I have maintained that we could never feel any resentment 1661 03:08:21,667 --> 03:08:26,917 against whoever it was that set the mine that killed our son. 1662 03:08:28,583 --> 03:08:30,208 (stammers) 1663 03:08:30,208 --> 03:08:32,875 The Americans deserve just what they got in that area. 1664 03:08:34,083 --> 03:08:35,333 The-the... 1665 03:08:35,333 --> 03:08:39,708 The commander of that division is a criminal, in my book. 1666 03:08:39,708 --> 03:08:46,041 He had been responsible for a lot of what went on in the My Lai area. 1667 03:08:46,041 --> 03:08:47,708 I think our government can be proud 1668 03:08:47,708 --> 03:08:51,583 that it has consistently looked into anything of this sort. 1669 03:08:51,583 --> 03:08:53,041 I think that's the way it's got to be. 1670 03:08:53,041 --> 03:08:55,375 I don't think that we're raising, here in America, 1671 03:08:55,375 --> 03:08:59,375 young men who are cruel and inhumane. Just the opposite. 1672 03:08:59,375 --> 03:09:02,875 I don't think it's simple to deal with Calley, 1673 03:09:02,875 --> 03:09:06,375 and I think it's interesting that we haven't been able to deal with him. 1674 03:09:06,375 --> 03:09:10,917 We're looking for some scapegoat when we do get caught with our, 1675 03:09:10,917 --> 03:09:14,083 um, crimes, exposed-- Ophuls: Exposed. 1676 03:09:14,083 --> 03:09:15,708 Photographs, evidence. Louise: Yeah. 1677 03:09:15,708 --> 03:09:18,041 And we go right down and look for the little guy, Louise: Yeah. 1678 03:09:18,041 --> 03:09:19,708 who is the least responsible. 1679 03:09:19,708 --> 03:09:23,417 Yes, who can try General Koster? 1680 03:09:23,417 --> 03:09:25,750 You know? They-- If-- 1681 03:09:25,750 --> 03:09:29,417 If we were in another position, as with the Germans, of course, 1682 03:09:29,417 --> 03:09:32,583 we could try the German generals, 1683 03:09:32,583 --> 03:09:34,959 but who is to try Koster? 1684 03:09:34,959 --> 03:09:36,083 Ophuls: Would you want to? 1685 03:09:38,750 --> 03:09:40,625 (sighs) Robert: No, no, I wouldn't. 1686 03:09:40,625 --> 03:09:42,542 I don't know. I don't, I don't know. 1687 03:09:42,542 --> 03:09:46,750 Ophuls: Do you think that trials in such cases solve anything? 1688 03:09:47,792 --> 03:09:50,500 (deep sigh) Oh, boy. 1689 03:09:50,500 --> 03:09:54,458 At the time of World War II, after the war was over, 1690 03:09:54,458 --> 03:09:57,166 the Nuremberg Trials, uh, 1691 03:09:57,166 --> 03:10:01,458 were really actually the victor trying, uh, the officers, 1692 03:10:01,458 --> 03:10:05,959 and the political side of the losers. Ophuls: Yes, yes. 1693 03:10:05,959 --> 03:10:08,583 And, uh, if you were to bring that to the Vietnam War, 1694 03:10:08,583 --> 03:10:12,750 it would have to be that the United States had lost the war in Vietnam, 1695 03:10:12,750 --> 03:10:15,250 and we have not lost the war in Vietnam. 1696 03:10:15,250 --> 03:10:20,458 And, uh, had we lost the Vietnam War, completely outright, 1697 03:10:20,458 --> 03:10:26,041 then you would have to have the North Vietnamese trying our political leaders, 1698 03:10:26,041 --> 03:10:29,000 and that just seems totally out of the question. 1699 03:10:29,000 --> 03:10:32,000 Robert: Well, I was so infuriated by Hitler, 1700 03:10:32,000 --> 03:10:35,750 that I tried to volunteer into various branches of the service 1701 03:10:35,750 --> 03:10:38,542 while I was still in college, back in '39, 1702 03:10:38,542 --> 03:10:42,041 but their physical standards were terribly high in those days, 1703 03:10:42,041 --> 03:10:45,000 and I did wear glasses, so I had to wait to be drafted. 1704 03:10:45,000 --> 03:10:47,708 Louise: As a matter of fact, I was just thinking 1705 03:10:47,708 --> 03:10:50,333 it was a remarkable time to be alive, 1706 03:10:50,333 --> 03:10:53,834 because, first of all, we were newly married. 1707 03:10:53,834 --> 03:10:56,583 We deeply believed in what we were doing. 1708 03:10:56,583 --> 03:11:00,834 The people that we were associated with on Army posts 1709 03:11:00,834 --> 03:11:04,834 were the cream of American life. 1710 03:11:04,834 --> 03:11:09,083 Marvelous and able and brilliant young men. 1711 03:11:09,083 --> 03:11:12,542 All-- We were-- A, we had enough money. 1712 03:11:12,542 --> 03:11:17,208 B, we really believed we were doing what we should be doing, 1713 03:11:17,208 --> 03:11:21,041 and, uh, I think that we really cared a great deal. 1714 03:11:21,041 --> 03:11:22,500 Ophuls: You wanted to fight? 1715 03:11:22,500 --> 03:11:24,166 Oh, gung ho. 1716 03:11:24,166 --> 03:11:30,083 I think I can imagine circumstances in which even I, at these advanced years, 1717 03:11:30,083 --> 03:11:33,041 would, would, would, would come out again. 1718 03:11:33,041 --> 03:11:38,917 Uh, it seems to me that, uh, we haven't accomplished anything by that war to end all wars. 1719 03:11:38,917 --> 03:11:42,959 And even though, at the time of being involved in it, 1720 03:11:42,959 --> 03:11:47,375 there wasn't any question of believing that we had no alternative... 1721 03:11:47,375 --> 03:11:54,083 uh, now, I have very serious questions as to what all that loss of life, 1722 03:11:54,083 --> 03:11:58,166 and all that destruction really accomplished in the world. 1723 03:11:58,166 --> 03:12:01,917 Ophuls: What was the alternative, Mrs. Ransom? Well, I don't know. 1724 03:12:01,917 --> 03:12:04,708 Having Hitler take over? No, no. 1725 03:12:04,708 --> 03:12:06,250 We were unquestioning, 1726 03:12:06,250 --> 03:12:10,083 and, uh, the, the people that did question were few and far between. 1727 03:12:10,083 --> 03:12:14,792 By the time that the atom bomb came into play, 1728 03:12:14,792 --> 03:12:18,959 I was sitting in northern Assam, up above Burma, 1729 03:12:18,959 --> 03:12:23,625 waiting again to jump into North China, 1730 03:12:23,625 --> 03:12:26,583 and, uh, I saw a telegram on the bulletin board, 1731 03:12:26,583 --> 03:12:32,834 and, uh, it reported that the United States had dropped, uh, an atom bomb on Hiroshima, 1732 03:12:32,834 --> 03:12:34,959 and who knew what that was. 1733 03:12:34,959 --> 03:12:38,333 Nobody had any concept that this was a war-ender. 1734 03:12:38,333 --> 03:12:41,375 And if it was a good, big bomb, bully, 1735 03:12:41,375 --> 03:12:42,917 we were all for it, 1736 03:12:42,917 --> 03:12:46,708 because we probably then wouldn't have to jump into the north of China. 1737 03:12:46,708 --> 03:12:49,792 From the day that we got back and started to think about it, 1738 03:12:49,792 --> 03:12:51,959 I think everybody's had second thoughts, 1739 03:12:51,959 --> 03:12:56,750 but at the moment, I can't pretend to be in that prestigious group 1740 03:12:56,750 --> 03:12:59,458 who, who saw immediately, well, 1741 03:12:59,458 --> 03:13:04,125 what the dire consequences were of the start of the nuclear age. 1742 03:13:04,125 --> 03:13:07,333 Taylor: I knew a great deal more about Dresden at the time it happened 1743 03:13:07,333 --> 03:13:11,792 than about Nagasaki and Hiroshima, uh, because, uh, 1744 03:13:11,792 --> 03:13:14,291 this was thought about and talked about 1745 03:13:14,291 --> 03:13:17,959 in Air Force circles in advance of the doing, of course. 1746 03:13:17,959 --> 03:13:23,500 And, uh, I was closely acquainted with a number of British officers 1747 03:13:23,500 --> 03:13:26,125 who thought that there was no reason for the bombing of Dresden, 1748 03:13:26,125 --> 03:13:27,667 and advised strongly against it. 1749 03:13:27,667 --> 03:13:31,333 We had a direct line to all commanders in the field, 1750 03:13:31,333 --> 03:13:36,458 and, uh, I rang up the American commanding general, General Spaatz, 1751 03:13:36,458 --> 03:13:41,000 and I said, "I hear you are going to bomb Dresden. Why?" 1752 03:13:41,000 --> 03:13:44,500 And he said, "Because these panzer divisions are going through Dresden." 1753 03:13:44,500 --> 03:13:48,166 And I said, "Well, our source shows quite differently. 1754 03:13:48,166 --> 03:13:51,375 They're going down west of Prague." 1755 03:13:51,375 --> 03:13:53,583 And he said, "Well, I accept that. 1756 03:13:53,583 --> 03:13:56,333 If you can show me that they are going nowhere near Dresden, 1757 03:13:56,333 --> 03:14:01,291 I will not bomb Dresden if the British agree not to bomb Dresden." 1758 03:14:01,291 --> 03:14:05,166 Then I rang up, tried to speak to Air Marshal Harris, 1759 03:14:05,166 --> 03:14:08,375 and got his number two, Air Marshal Saundby. 1760 03:14:08,375 --> 03:14:12,208 I spoke to him and said, uh, "There's nothing there in Dresden to bomb." 1761 03:14:12,208 --> 03:14:17,166 And he said, "Well, um, that does not make any difference. 1762 03:14:17,166 --> 03:14:18,875 We are going to bomb Dresden." 1763 03:14:18,875 --> 03:14:21,375 They had no accommodations for burial, 1764 03:14:21,375 --> 03:14:24,834 and we would stack these people like cord wood, 1765 03:14:24,834 --> 03:14:29,375 cover them with lime, and then German squads would come around and burn them, 1766 03:14:29,375 --> 03:14:34,834 and then, uh, they would say, "Do you see what you've done, uh, to this beautiful city?" 1767 03:14:34,834 --> 03:14:40,083 Dresden was one of the most beautiful cities I ever saw in my life. 1768 03:14:40,083 --> 03:14:41,542 Really beautiful. 1769 03:14:41,542 --> 03:14:44,083 When we were captured, myself and Vonnegut, 1770 03:14:44,083 --> 03:14:46,583 we were very happy to have been sent to Dresden, 1771 03:14:46,583 --> 03:14:49,166 because we were told by everyone, including the English, 1772 03:14:49,166 --> 03:14:52,166 who were at the Stalag Four-B at the time, 1773 03:14:52,166 --> 03:14:56,083 that it was, uh, an unwritten rule 1774 03:14:56,083 --> 03:14:58,917 that, uh, Paris wouldn't be touched and neither would Dresden. 1775 03:14:58,917 --> 03:15:00,250 Ophuls: That's right. That's right. 1776 03:15:00,250 --> 03:15:03,792 Because they were monuments of civilization. 1777 03:15:03,792 --> 03:15:05,458 That's correct. 1778 03:15:05,458 --> 03:15:09,250 And what a monument of civilization it became. 1779 03:15:09,250 --> 03:15:11,041 Ophuls: But what about Dresden? 1780 03:15:11,041 --> 03:15:16,542 I don't think it's ever been a maxim of, um, law in any civilized society, 1781 03:15:16,542 --> 03:15:19,250 that you mustn't punish A, 1782 03:15:19,250 --> 03:15:23,959 because B has also committed crimes, and you can't get at B. 1783 03:15:25,375 --> 03:15:29,875 Ophuls: What about when B is, uh, is sitting in judgment? 1784 03:15:29,875 --> 03:15:32,917 Well, that is, perhaps, unfortunate, 1785 03:15:32,917 --> 03:15:37,333 but B's crimes were not then an issue. 1786 03:15:37,333 --> 03:15:41,542 No, as a matter of fact, I'm, in a way, rather in favor 1787 03:15:41,542 --> 03:15:44,583 of civilians being involved in war. 1788 03:15:44,583 --> 03:15:47,208 I think the more you involve civilians in war, 1789 03:15:47,208 --> 03:15:49,917 the less likely you are to have wars. 1790 03:15:49,917 --> 03:15:51,583 Dresden, Hamburg... 1791 03:15:51,583 --> 03:15:55,458 these were no doubt, um, terrible incidents, 1792 03:15:55,458 --> 03:15:59,625 but they were the inevitable consequence of, um, 1793 03:15:59,625 --> 03:16:06,834 Rotterdam, and London, and Coventry, and Birmingham, and Liverpool, and... 1794 03:16:06,834 --> 03:16:09,166 In this part of the world, 1795 03:16:09,166 --> 03:16:11,834 where I lived at that time, 1796 03:16:11,834 --> 03:16:18,500 not a day passed without, um, German aircraft flying over here, 1797 03:16:18,500 --> 03:16:24,083 and in this very garden, um, one of our barns, 1798 03:16:24,083 --> 03:16:29,625 and a large area with farm buildings, was completely destroyed. 1799 03:16:29,625 --> 03:16:32,959 (playful chatter, laughing, screaming) 1800 03:16:32,959 --> 03:16:35,917 (carnival music playing) 1801 03:16:35,917 --> 03:16:38,333 O'Hare: Before the bombing had taken place, 1802 03:16:38,333 --> 03:16:41,667 I worked in a maltzfabrik, and they made an extract 1803 03:16:41,667 --> 03:16:44,667 which supposedly was full of vitamins or something 1804 03:16:44,667 --> 03:16:47,000 for sick people and pregnant women. 1805 03:16:47,000 --> 03:16:51,875 There was a woman that worked in this maltzfabrik by the name of Mertz, Frau Mertz. 1806 03:16:51,875 --> 03:16:55,000 She used to slip me a sandwich, 1807 03:16:55,000 --> 03:16:58,542 not a very good sandwich, but a sandwich, nonetheless, and it was very good. 1808 03:16:58,542 --> 03:17:01,917 It tasted good to me, uh, about every other day, 1809 03:17:01,917 --> 03:17:04,625 and she was always " sags nichts ," you know, when they-- 1810 03:17:04,625 --> 03:17:06,875 when she would slip it to me. Ophuls: What would she say? 1811 03:17:06,875 --> 03:17:08,542 "Sags nichts." Ah! 1812 03:17:08,542 --> 03:17:09,875 Yeah, "Don't say anything," you know, 1813 03:17:09,875 --> 03:17:12,959 and it was very secretive, the way she would slip this, 1814 03:17:12,959 --> 03:17:16,458 and I'm sure it was at great expense to herself 1815 03:17:16,458 --> 03:17:20,458 because, as I say, they didn't have much food, either. 1816 03:17:20,458 --> 03:17:22,667 After the bombing of Dresden, 1817 03:17:22,667 --> 03:17:27,000 I saw her about three weeks afterwards. 1818 03:17:27,000 --> 03:17:30,750 Uh, she called me schwein. 1819 03:17:30,750 --> 03:17:32,834 I said to her, "How are you, Frau Mertz?" 1820 03:17:32,834 --> 03:17:35,750 She said, " Schwein ," and just walked away. 1821 03:17:35,750 --> 03:17:38,500 And by the way, her mother was killed in this raid. 1822 03:17:38,500 --> 03:17:39,625 Uh, she didn't know-- 1823 03:17:39,625 --> 03:17:42,250 She wasn't in London when it was being bombed. 1824 03:17:42,250 --> 03:17:44,792 Shawcross: Those who wage aggressive war 1825 03:17:44,792 --> 03:17:47,625 must contemplate the possibility 1826 03:17:47,625 --> 03:17:48,917 that they may be beaten, 1827 03:17:48,917 --> 03:17:51,750 and that they will be beaten by the very methods 1828 03:17:51,750 --> 03:17:54,750 that they have chosen to use themselves. 1829 03:17:54,750 --> 03:17:57,542 Ophuls: When you're using "they" and "those..." 1830 03:17:57,542 --> 03:18:01,000 I am addressing a former prosecutor of Nuremberg... 1831 03:18:01,000 --> 03:18:03,083 Shawcross: For Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 1832 03:18:03,083 --> 03:18:05,750 Ophuls: And didn't Nuremberg proceed on the assumption 1833 03:18:05,750 --> 03:18:10,208 of individual rather than collective responsibility? 1834 03:18:10,208 --> 03:18:14,083 Shawcross: The individuals who are the leaders of the state 1835 03:18:14,083 --> 03:18:19,000 have a personal and individual responsibility. 1836 03:18:19,000 --> 03:18:23,625 The great mass of the citizens must, I'm afraid, 1837 03:18:23,625 --> 03:18:26,708 accept a collective responsibility for that 1838 03:18:26,708 --> 03:18:32,208 which governments do in the name of the state to which they belong. 1839 03:18:32,208 --> 03:18:35,417 ♪ ♪ 1840 03:18:35,417 --> 03:18:37,333 Narrator: RAF heavy bombers assist 1841 03:18:37,333 --> 03:18:39,625 Marshal Konev's drive into the Reich. 1842 03:18:39,625 --> 03:18:41,417 The target is Dresden. 1843 03:18:41,417 --> 03:18:43,667 It was being used to pump German troops 1844 03:18:43,667 --> 03:18:45,834 into counterattacks against the Russian army, 1845 03:18:45,834 --> 03:18:47,834 not many miles to the east. 1846 03:18:47,834 --> 03:18:50,792 This strike put a stop to that. 1847 03:18:50,792 --> 03:18:53,834 Static electrical discharge caused by intense cold 1848 03:18:53,834 --> 03:18:57,000 mars these magnificent bombing shots. 1849 03:18:57,000 --> 03:19:00,000 (explosions) 1850 03:19:05,583 --> 03:19:08,208 Narrator: The day after the RAF strike at Dresden, 1851 03:19:08,208 --> 03:19:11,083 B-17 bombers of the Eighth United States Air Force 1852 03:19:11,083 --> 03:19:13,375 gave the city a repeat performance. 1853 03:19:13,375 --> 03:19:16,667 ♪ ♪ 1854 03:19:22,667 --> 03:19:24,083 Narrator: After these attacks, 1855 03:19:24,083 --> 03:19:26,375 the German Overseas News agency said, 1856 03:19:26,375 --> 03:19:30,208 "This city, hitherto almost untouched, is a heap of ruins. 1857 03:19:30,208 --> 03:19:32,041 It has been smashed to atoms." 1858 03:19:32,041 --> 03:19:37,458 Ophuls: Suppose the London Charter had not specifically excluded 1859 03:19:37,458 --> 03:19:41,500 Allied war crimes from the deliberations in Nuremberg, 1860 03:19:41,500 --> 03:19:44,208 and suppose that, as a consequence of this, 1861 03:19:44,208 --> 03:19:48,792 Air Marshal Harris had been in the defendant's dock. 1862 03:19:48,792 --> 03:19:51,708 Would you have accepted to come to Nuremberg 1863 03:19:51,708 --> 03:19:54,041 and testify about what you knew? 1864 03:19:54,041 --> 03:19:57,542 Oh, yes, certainly. But I must qualify this. 1865 03:19:57,542 --> 03:20:01,834 I would have gone to Nuremberg, and I would have had to listen to what the defense said, 1866 03:20:01,834 --> 03:20:05,041 because there might have been reasons of a military nature 1867 03:20:05,041 --> 03:20:07,667 about which I knew nothing. 1868 03:20:07,667 --> 03:20:10,083 But, as far as I knew, it was a crime. 1869 03:20:10,083 --> 03:20:13,625 Ophuls: And you have no-- And you haven't found anything since, 1870 03:20:13,625 --> 03:20:18,917 in the 28 years since, which have made you revise that assessment? 1871 03:20:18,917 --> 03:20:19,959 No. 1872 03:20:22,250 --> 03:20:24,250 It would have seemed very cynical 1873 03:20:24,250 --> 03:20:27,583 to punish the Germans for bombing Rotterdam and Belgrade 1874 03:20:27,583 --> 03:20:29,333 when we were all walking around loose, 1875 03:20:29,333 --> 03:20:30,917 having bombed Hiroshima and Dresden. 1876 03:20:30,917 --> 03:20:33,834 Jackson: Even the most warlike of peoples have recognized, 1877 03:20:33,834 --> 03:20:36,583 in the name of humanity, 1878 03:20:36,583 --> 03:20:39,917 some limitations on the savagery of warfare. 1879 03:20:39,917 --> 03:20:41,792 Ophuls: That not even at the time, 1880 03:20:41,792 --> 03:20:43,458 the restrictions of the London Charter 1881 03:20:43,458 --> 03:20:47,166 contradict this high idealism that Jackson expressed. 1882 03:20:47,166 --> 03:20:51,333 I mean, the fact that Allied war crimes were specifically excluded, 1883 03:20:51,333 --> 03:20:54,625 could not be referred to by defense counsel. Mm-hmm. 1884 03:20:54,625 --> 03:20:56,875 Sure, (clears throat) these were, uh-- 1885 03:20:56,875 --> 03:21:01,458 These were very, uh, uh, unfortunate, uh, lapses in the Charter. 1886 03:21:01,458 --> 03:21:06,458 Ophuls: What about sharing the prosecution with the people, 1887 03:21:06,458 --> 03:21:08,333 as history seems to have established, 1888 03:21:08,333 --> 03:21:10,625 who were responsible for the Katyn massacre? 1889 03:21:10,625 --> 03:21:13,542 It would have seemed to me self-righteous to, uh, 1890 03:21:13,542 --> 03:21:16,625 refuse to participate in the prosecution with the Russians 1891 03:21:16,625 --> 03:21:19,458 simply because I knew or suspected or thought 1892 03:21:19,458 --> 03:21:21,208 that other Russians might, at other times, 1893 03:21:21,208 --> 03:21:23,000 have been involved in the Katyn massacre. 1894 03:21:23,000 --> 03:21:24,834 This would not have seemed to me to make sense. 1895 03:21:24,834 --> 03:21:27,708 With the knowledge we have, um, 1896 03:21:27,708 --> 03:21:29,792 there's very little doubt that these murders 1897 03:21:29,792 --> 03:21:32,291 were in fact committed by the Russians. 1898 03:21:32,291 --> 03:21:37,125 (clears throat) Uh, Justice Jackson strongly urged the Russians 1899 03:21:37,125 --> 03:21:41,375 to leave it out of the in-- leave the Katyn accusation out of the indictment, 1900 03:21:41,375 --> 03:21:46,375 because he well knew that this was, uh, a, a very dubious matter. 1901 03:21:46,375 --> 03:21:48,375 Jackson: ...you bring the subject matter up at that point, 1902 03:21:48,375 --> 03:21:50,667 Taylor: The Russians insisted on keeping it in. 1903 03:21:51,917 --> 03:21:54,208 (indistinct chatter) 1904 03:21:54,208 --> 03:21:56,917 Taylor: The Russians then did introduce evidence 1905 03:21:56,917 --> 03:21:59,291 to establish that the Germans did it. 1906 03:21:59,291 --> 03:22:01,250 The German defense counsel introduced evidence, 1907 03:22:01,250 --> 03:22:04,000 and were allowed to introduce evidence to show that the Russians did it. 1908 03:22:04,000 --> 03:22:05,708 If that was the true view, 1909 03:22:05,708 --> 03:22:09,166 the Russians ought to have been in the dock as well as the Germans. 1910 03:22:09,166 --> 03:22:10,667 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking French) 1911 03:22:26,375 --> 03:22:29,375 There, um, is no doubt now 1912 03:22:29,375 --> 03:22:33,041 that they were guilty of these crimes. 1913 03:22:33,041 --> 03:22:35,333 Ophuls: Of course, there's no doubt now that they were guilty 1914 03:22:35,333 --> 03:22:38,041 of a great many other crimes at that time, too. 1915 03:22:38,041 --> 03:22:39,708 No, you see, at that time, 1916 03:22:39,708 --> 03:22:45,166 I don't think we appreciated, um, sufficiently that that was the case. 1917 03:22:45,166 --> 03:22:47,375 (speaking German) 1918 03:23:01,917 --> 03:23:03,417 (Alexander speaks German) 1919 03:23:07,041 --> 03:23:09,041 (speaking German) 1920 03:23:44,458 --> 03:23:46,625 (Ophuls speaks German) 1921 03:23:48,667 --> 03:23:50,500 (speaking in German) 1922 03:24:06,750 --> 03:24:11,583 Ophuls: And has your discovery about the country you love 1923 03:24:11,583 --> 03:24:14,125 changed you as an individual? 1924 03:24:14,125 --> 03:24:16,291 It certainly has helped to do that. 1925 03:24:16,291 --> 03:24:19,750 And since I read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, 1926 03:24:19,750 --> 03:24:21,542 I guess it was borne in upon me 1927 03:24:21,542 --> 03:24:23,667 that these things had happened before. 1928 03:24:23,667 --> 03:24:26,750 The feeling that I'd had for a long time, that, uh, 1929 03:24:26,750 --> 03:24:30,500 these things didn't go on in the American armed forces, uh... 1930 03:24:30,500 --> 03:24:32,667 Alas, it isn't so. They sometimes do. 1931 03:24:32,667 --> 03:24:34,125 (speaking German) 1932 03:24:42,750 --> 03:24:45,000 (speaking German) 1933 03:25:13,625 --> 03:25:16,208 (speaking German) 1934 03:25:27,375 --> 03:25:29,417 Ophuls: Ja. 1935 03:25:32,041 --> 03:25:33,125 (Ophuls speaks German) 1936 03:25:33,125 --> 03:25:34,834 (Speer speaks German) 1937 03:25:42,959 --> 03:25:44,875 Ophuls: Ah, ja. 1938 03:25:47,083 --> 03:25:49,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 1939 03:25:52,208 --> 03:25:54,375 (Speer speaks German) 1940 03:25:54,375 --> 03:25:56,625 (Ophuls speaks German) (Speer speaks German) 1941 03:25:58,625 --> 03:26:01,417 (Speer speaks German) 1942 03:26:50,000 --> 03:26:52,125 (speaking German) 1943 03:27:56,542 --> 03:27:58,708 (Ophuls speaks German) 1944 03:28:23,708 --> 03:28:26,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 1945 03:28:48,667 --> 03:28:50,917 (Ophuls speaks German) 1946 03:29:00,959 --> 03:29:02,083 Ja. 1947 03:29:04,583 --> 03:29:06,708 (Ophuls speaks German) 1948 03:29:09,375 --> 03:29:10,959 Ja, mm-hmm. 1949 03:29:10,959 --> 03:29:12,875 (speaking French) 1950 03:29:58,166 --> 03:30:00,333 (speaking German) 1951 03:30:20,125 --> 03:30:22,000 (Speer speaks German) 1952 03:30:28,792 --> 03:30:30,500 Ophuls: Ah, ja? 1953 03:30:37,166 --> 03:30:39,166 (both speaking German) 1954 03:30:39,166 --> 03:30:40,542 (Ophuls speaks German) 1955 03:30:40,542 --> 03:30:41,708 (Speer speaks German) 1956 03:30:43,333 --> 03:30:45,667 (Ophuls speaks German) 1957 03:30:45,667 --> 03:30:46,667 Speer: Ja. 1958 03:30:46,667 --> 03:30:49,500 (both speaking German) 1959 03:30:49,500 --> 03:30:50,583 (Speer speaks German) 1960 03:30:51,542 --> 03:30:54,417 (Ophuls speaks German) 1961 03:30:54,417 --> 03:30:57,375 (Speer speaks German) 1962 03:31:02,125 --> 03:31:05,041 (both speaking in German) 1963 03:31:05,041 --> 03:31:06,625 (Ophuls speaks German) 1964 03:31:06,625 --> 03:31:08,500 (Speer speaks German) 1965 03:31:10,083 --> 03:31:11,792 (speaking German) 1966 03:31:11,792 --> 03:31:13,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 1967 03:31:21,750 --> 03:31:23,917 Ja. 1968 03:31:25,750 --> 03:31:27,417 (Speer speaks German) 1969 03:31:30,375 --> 03:31:33,041 Ophuls: Ja, ja. 1970 03:31:40,083 --> 03:31:41,917 (Ophuls speaks German) 1971 03:31:41,917 --> 03:31:43,083 (speaking German) 1972 03:31:44,083 --> 03:31:45,291 (Ophuls speaks German) 1973 03:31:45,291 --> 03:31:47,250 (Speer speaks German) 1974 03:31:50,417 --> 03:31:51,542 Ophuls: Ja. 1975 03:31:51,542 --> 03:31:53,583 (Ophuls speaking in German) 1976 03:31:55,542 --> 03:31:57,708 (Speer speaks German) 1977 03:31:59,834 --> 03:32:01,208 Ophuls: Ja. 1978 03:32:06,291 --> 03:32:07,458 Ophuls: Ja. 1979 03:32:07,458 --> 03:32:10,625 (speaking German) 1980 03:32:21,625 --> 03:32:23,792 (speaking German) 1981 03:33:25,875 --> 03:33:27,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 1982 03:33:49,250 --> 03:33:52,291 Taylor: The evidence will show that the defendants knew well 1983 03:33:52,291 --> 03:33:55,875 the manner in which this labor was being recruited. 1984 03:33:55,875 --> 03:33:58,375 For these defendants were eager, 1985 03:33:58,375 --> 03:34:00,375 aggressive, and successful 1986 03:34:00,375 --> 03:34:03,000 in their efforts to obtain workers from all sources 1987 03:34:03,000 --> 03:34:05,208 involved in this criminal program. 1988 03:34:05,208 --> 03:34:07,375 (speaking French) 1989 03:34:29,083 --> 03:34:31,750 (speaking German) 1990 03:34:44,166 --> 03:34:46,250 (Kranzbuehler speaking in German) 1991 03:34:56,625 --> 03:34:58,458 (Serge speaking in French) 1992 03:35:16,291 --> 03:35:18,583 (speaking German) 1993 03:35:41,375 --> 03:35:43,125 Taylor: You've mentioned that Dr.Kranzbuehler 1994 03:35:43,125 --> 03:35:44,959 was doing pretty well out of all this. 1995 03:35:44,959 --> 03:35:47,166 Oh, well, I can't say that it gives me great pleasure 1996 03:35:47,166 --> 03:35:50,166 to learn that, uh, that someone who's, uh, uh, 1997 03:35:50,166 --> 03:35:53,000 been involved, like Flick or someone like that, is, uh, 1998 03:35:53,000 --> 03:35:56,333 still, uh, very wealthy and living in great luxury, 1999 03:35:56,333 --> 03:36:00,583 but, uh, I don't think that means that the lesson is totally lost. 2000 03:36:00,583 --> 03:36:03,667 I agree it does dull the edges a good deal. 2001 03:36:03,667 --> 03:36:05,834 (speaking German) 2002 03:36:32,667 --> 03:36:36,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 2003 03:36:40,708 --> 03:36:41,875 (Ophuls speaks) 2004 03:36:41,875 --> 03:36:43,542 (Kehrl speaks) 2005 03:36:46,875 --> 03:36:47,917 (Ophuls speaks) 2006 03:37:25,125 --> 03:37:27,417 (Kempner speaking German) 2007 03:37:53,625 --> 03:37:55,667 (Ophuls speaks) 2008 03:37:57,959 --> 03:37:59,458 Ja. 2009 03:38:01,125 --> 03:38:02,333 Ja. 2010 03:38:02,333 --> 03:38:05,291 (Ophuls speaks) 2011 03:38:05,291 --> 03:38:06,333 Ja. 2012 03:38:06,333 --> 03:38:09,291 (Ophuls speaks) 2013 03:38:15,542 --> 03:38:16,625 (Ophuls speaks German) 2014 03:38:25,542 --> 03:38:27,291 (Ophuls speaks) 2015 03:38:33,542 --> 03:38:35,458 (Speer speaking in German) 2016 03:38:36,625 --> 03:38:38,625 (Ophuls speaks German) 2017 03:38:38,625 --> 03:38:40,875 (Ophuls speaks German) (Speer speaks German) 2018 03:38:40,875 --> 03:38:42,500 (Speer speaks German) 2019 03:38:45,458 --> 03:38:47,333 (Ophuls speaks) Speer: Ja. 2020 03:38:47,333 --> 03:38:48,667 (Ophuls speaks) 2021 03:38:48,667 --> 03:38:50,542 (Speer speaks) 2022 03:39:03,542 --> 03:39:04,875 Ophuls: Ja. 2023 03:39:04,875 --> 03:39:06,500 (Ophuls speaks) 2024 03:39:09,375 --> 03:39:11,000 (chuckling) 2025 03:39:22,208 --> 03:39:24,375 (Speer speaking German) 2026 03:39:51,750 --> 03:39:53,542 (Ophuls speaks) 2027 03:40:03,333 --> 03:40:06,333 Lawrence: Defendant Friedrich Flick... 2028 03:40:06,333 --> 03:40:08,875 Ferencz: Mr. Flick had been one of the largest contributors 2029 03:40:08,875 --> 03:40:11,667 to the personal fund of Heinrich Himmler. 2030 03:40:11,667 --> 03:40:15,333 Himmler had escorted Flick through the concentration camps. 2031 03:40:15,333 --> 03:40:18,250 Flick had seen the conditions under which 2032 03:40:18,250 --> 03:40:22,667 the inmates were required to slave in various Flick factories. 2033 03:40:22,667 --> 03:40:25,625 Those who were the slave laborers, 2034 03:40:25,625 --> 03:40:29,125 the concentration camp inmates who worked for Flick, 2035 03:40:29,125 --> 03:40:32,500 uh, most of them are very poor people today, 2036 03:40:32,500 --> 03:40:35,792 and he who played a leading part in, uh, 2037 03:40:35,792 --> 03:40:38,417 responsibility for their misery, uh, died, 2038 03:40:38,417 --> 03:40:42,417 not only the richest man, but completely unrepentant. 2039 03:40:42,417 --> 03:40:45,959 Lawrence: Defendant Friedrich Flick. 2040 03:40:45,959 --> 03:40:48,750 How do you plead to this indictment? 2041 03:40:48,750 --> 03:40:51,625 Guilty or not guilty? 2042 03:40:51,625 --> 03:40:53,125 (speaking German) 2043 03:40:53,125 --> 03:40:55,458 Uh, he didn't get a very severe sentence. 2044 03:40:55,458 --> 03:40:59,417 He got a five-year sentence, and I can't remember exactly how much of it he had served 2045 03:40:59,417 --> 03:41:00,917 when Mr. McCloy let him out. 2046 03:41:00,917 --> 03:41:04,208 As is often the case, uh, those who persecute others 2047 03:41:04,208 --> 03:41:05,834 consider themselves the victim, 2048 03:41:05,834 --> 03:41:07,417 and he considered himself a victim. 2049 03:41:07,417 --> 03:41:09,208 (Kehrl speaking in German) 2050 03:41:37,583 --> 03:41:39,875 Ophuls: Um... 2051 03:41:49,875 --> 03:41:51,041 (Ophuls speaks German) 2052 03:42:04,583 --> 03:42:07,667 Perhaps, perhaps he knew more than he has yet told us. 2053 03:42:21,583 --> 03:42:24,041 He said, "I could have known." Ophuls: Yes. 2054 03:42:24,041 --> 03:42:26,417 And he is uncompromising in saying 2055 03:42:26,417 --> 03:42:30,166 that that creates as much responsibility Ophuls: "I should have known." 2056 03:42:30,166 --> 03:42:31,625 as if I had known. 2057 03:42:31,625 --> 03:42:38,375 Now, that is a, a thought that can only be frightening to a McNamara. 2058 03:42:38,375 --> 03:42:44,291 Uh, to, uh, to anyone who continues to excuse himself 2059 03:42:44,291 --> 03:42:47,375 on the basis of what he did not, in fact, know, 2060 03:42:47,375 --> 03:42:51,959 because, really, not to know some of these things required a good deal of effort. 2061 03:42:51,959 --> 03:42:54,208 It required turning aside questions. 2062 03:42:54,208 --> 03:43:01,166 Uh, it required, um, what Orwell describes very, very analytically in 1984. 2063 03:43:01,166 --> 03:43:03,250 Uh, "doublethink," he calls it. 2064 03:43:03,250 --> 03:43:09,917 The ability to stop short of a logical inference from premises that you do hold. 2065 03:43:09,917 --> 03:43:14,166 The ability not to see the logical, uh, implications of something. 2066 03:43:14,166 --> 03:43:17,542 To be-- to be stupid. Controlled stupidity. 2067 03:43:17,542 --> 03:43:20,291 Uh, something that is trained into us, I-- 2068 03:43:20,291 --> 03:43:24,583 As in Orwell's 1984, but we-- we didn't wait that long for it. 2069 03:43:24,583 --> 03:43:26,792 Holly Near: ♪ No more genocide ♪ 2070 03:43:26,792 --> 03:43:31,291 ♪ No, no, no, no ♪ 2071 03:43:31,291 --> 03:43:34,000 ♪ Now, that's just a lie ♪ 2072 03:43:34,000 --> 03:43:38,291 ♪ It's one of the many, and we've had plenty ♪ 2073 03:43:38,291 --> 03:43:40,583 ♪ I don't want more ♪ 2074 03:43:40,583 --> 03:43:45,000 ♪ Understand ♪ 2075 03:43:45,000 --> 03:43:48,291 ♪ No more genocide in our name ♪ 2076 03:43:48,291 --> 03:43:51,291 It is so discrediting to an American audience 2077 03:43:51,291 --> 03:43:54,333 to raise the possibility that American behavior in the world 2078 03:43:54,333 --> 03:43:56,500 can be like that of Nazi Germany. 2079 03:43:56,500 --> 03:43:59,458 That to say it is practically to show that you are a fanatic, 2080 03:43:59,458 --> 03:44:02,166 extremist, radical anti-American... 2081 03:44:02,166 --> 03:44:05,834 uh, someone who hates America, and is not to be listened to or learned from. 2082 03:44:05,834 --> 03:44:08,834 Ellsberg: First things first, there's a lost child here. 2083 03:44:08,834 --> 03:44:14,375 Uh, Roberta... Reiling? Rebecca Reiling. 2084 03:44:14,375 --> 03:44:17,000 I was up till three o'clock last night here, 2085 03:44:17,000 --> 03:44:21,458 reading a bestseller that I got hold of in Washington. 2086 03:44:21,458 --> 03:44:22,875 Instant history. 2087 03:44:22,875 --> 03:44:24,542 (crowd applauds) 2088 03:44:24,542 --> 03:44:27,959 If you look at the taped conversations of the president relating to Watergate, 2089 03:44:27,959 --> 03:44:33,208 on every other page, we find individuals quite consciously evading knowledge. 2090 03:44:33,208 --> 03:44:34,375 Guilty knowledge. 2091 03:44:34,375 --> 03:44:37,333 This is, in fact, of course, political pornography. 2092 03:44:37,333 --> 03:44:39,000 It is the pornography of power. 2093 03:44:39,000 --> 03:44:42,625 The fantasy life of men who are stoned out of their minds 2094 03:44:42,625 --> 03:44:44,875 on secrets and power, outlaw power. 2095 03:44:44,875 --> 03:44:47,583 One of my points in bringing out the Pentagon Papers, 2096 03:44:47,583 --> 03:44:51,583 one of my desires, was that, at last, the evidence would be available 2097 03:44:51,583 --> 03:44:55,375 to give life to the concept of high-level, 2098 03:44:55,375 --> 03:44:58,708 official crimes of planning aggressive war, 2099 03:44:58,708 --> 03:45:03,583 war in violation of international agreements or against commitments, 2100 03:45:03,583 --> 03:45:05,667 and, uh, to reopen the issue. 2101 03:45:05,667 --> 03:45:10,417 Now, not of the Calley-type crime, the crimes of sergeants and lieutenants, 2102 03:45:10,417 --> 03:45:12,750 but the crimes of generals and presidents. 2103 03:45:12,750 --> 03:45:14,583 The crimes of-- against the peace. 2104 03:45:14,583 --> 03:45:18,333 Assuming that it is so, that this was the reason he decided to publish them, 2105 03:45:18,333 --> 03:45:21,917 uh, that makes sense to me. That makes sense to me. 2106 03:45:21,917 --> 03:45:24,750 I don't know Taylor at all well. 2107 03:45:24,750 --> 03:45:27,500 He is a general and sees himself as such, apparently. 2108 03:45:27,500 --> 03:45:30,208 I don't think that, uh, his defense here is, 2109 03:45:30,208 --> 03:45:33,625 is really based on anything decided at Nuremberg. 2110 03:45:33,625 --> 03:45:36,583 It's based on a feeling that Nuremberg has, uh, 2111 03:45:36,583 --> 03:45:42,708 has, uh, portrayed to everyone the importance of, of, of following one's conscience 2112 03:45:42,708 --> 03:45:46,375 to the best of one's ability and standing up against repressive measures. 2113 03:45:46,375 --> 03:45:48,583 I'm sure that he sees himself as an American 2114 03:45:48,583 --> 03:45:52,083 having gone, uh, beyond certain earlier barriers 2115 03:45:52,083 --> 03:45:56,458 and being willing to imagine that American soldiers, like a Calley, 2116 03:45:56,458 --> 03:46:01,125 might be like German soldiers and subject to the same kinds of laws, 2117 03:46:01,125 --> 03:46:04,458 and perhaps that even, and this is very far, that a German-- 2118 03:46:04,458 --> 03:46:07,917 that an American general like Westmoreland could be held accountable, 2119 03:46:07,917 --> 03:46:10,083 like a Jodl or someone else. 2120 03:46:10,083 --> 03:46:11,667 He has not gotten to the point 2121 03:46:11,667 --> 03:46:14,917 where an American civilian official or president-- 2122 03:46:14,917 --> 03:46:17,625 that he is willing, I'm sure, in his own mind, to imagine 2123 03:46:17,625 --> 03:46:21,083 could be guilty in the same way that German officials were guilty. 2124 03:46:21,083 --> 03:46:24,750 There were individuals in high places in the government 2125 03:46:24,750 --> 03:46:30,041 who saw this as an opportunity for a military conquest, 2126 03:46:30,041 --> 03:46:34,125 and who were aware of the treaty problems and, nonetheless, went ahead. 2127 03:46:34,125 --> 03:46:38,041 Uh, but, uh, if you are asking me to say that "X" or "Y" 2128 03:46:38,041 --> 03:46:41,708 or a "Smith" or a "Jones" is a war criminal-- Ophuls: Or Westmoreland or McNamara. 2129 03:46:41,708 --> 03:46:43,917 Or anybody you should name. I won't do it. 2130 03:46:43,917 --> 03:46:46,417 Uh, you can do it, but you wouldn't get an answer. 2131 03:46:46,417 --> 03:46:48,291 Right. That's what trials are for. 2132 03:46:48,291 --> 03:46:50,917 That's what trials are for. It's to examine evidence and weigh it. 2133 03:46:50,917 --> 03:46:52,542 Shawcross: Telford Taylor... 2134 03:46:52,542 --> 03:46:55,917 Uh, I don't agree with the views that I've heard expressed by him, 2135 03:46:55,917 --> 03:46:59,583 and I don't think, myself, that there is any parallel 2136 03:46:59,583 --> 03:47:03,917 between the American intervention in Vietnam, 2137 03:47:03,917 --> 03:47:06,583 um, at the request of the then government, 2138 03:47:06,583 --> 03:47:11,667 whatever one may think about the system of democracy that operated then, 2139 03:47:11,667 --> 03:47:15,250 and German aggression against the rest of Europe. 2140 03:47:15,250 --> 03:47:17,500 Ophuls: How about the methods of waging war? 2141 03:47:17,500 --> 03:47:20,250 Oh, the methods of waging war? 2142 03:47:20,250 --> 03:47:24,959 Well, the methods, of course, were much the same. Ophuls: Napalm... 2143 03:47:24,959 --> 03:47:27,458 It's absolute nonsense to suppose 2144 03:47:27,458 --> 03:47:31,583 that one can conduct a major war with, um, 2145 03:47:31,583 --> 03:47:36,291 rules that you might enforce in a game of football. 2146 03:47:36,291 --> 03:47:38,542 Wars are fought to be won. 2147 03:47:38,542 --> 03:47:43,208 One criticism I might make of the Americans in Vietnam 2148 03:47:43,208 --> 03:47:46,041 is that they never fought that war to win it. 2149 03:47:46,041 --> 03:47:47,625 They didn't really go all out, 2150 03:47:47,625 --> 03:47:50,041 and use the whole of the weapons at their disposal. 2151 03:47:50,041 --> 03:47:52,208 Ophuls: You mean, like, for instance, the atomic bomb? 2152 03:47:52,208 --> 03:47:55,291 They could have used the atomic bomb, they didn't do that, 2153 03:47:55,291 --> 03:47:59,834 but I don't think that we can contemplate another war on a world scale 2154 03:47:59,834 --> 03:48:01,959 in which the atomic bomb is not used. 2155 03:48:01,959 --> 03:48:04,333 But it would certainly be ironic 2156 03:48:04,333 --> 03:48:10,667 if an American official goes to jail for illegal entry into a doctor's office 2157 03:48:10,667 --> 03:48:16,041 and is beyond accountability and punishment for illegal entry into three nations, 2158 03:48:16,041 --> 03:48:19,500 and illegal entry into this air space of those three nations 2159 03:48:19,500 --> 03:48:22,792 by B-52's dropping four and a half million tons of bombs. 2160 03:48:22,792 --> 03:48:24,708 (whistles, cheers) 2161 03:48:29,333 --> 03:48:33,417 You can raise the moral issues, provided they're abstract. 2162 03:48:33,417 --> 03:48:36,250 The problem with the war crimes issue is 2163 03:48:36,250 --> 03:48:42,041 that it relates abstract assertions to concrete individuals, 2164 03:48:42,041 --> 03:48:44,625 and you can't avoid the inference 2165 03:48:44,625 --> 03:48:48,041 that if you are saying war crimes have been committed 2166 03:48:48,041 --> 03:48:52,500 and individuals who act on behalf of the government should be held accountable-- 2167 03:48:52,500 --> 03:48:54,625 Ophuls: Then who the hell committed them? Right. 2168 03:48:54,625 --> 03:48:58,083 In Vietnam, my, my, my reactions to going in there were 2169 03:48:58,083 --> 03:49:02,959 overwhelmingly practical, rather than moral, I'm afraid. 2170 03:49:02,959 --> 03:49:04,625 Ophuls: Why do you say "I'm afraid"? 2171 03:49:04,625 --> 03:49:08,125 Well, I suppose that I would have a certain enlarged sense of righteousness 2172 03:49:08,125 --> 03:49:13,375 if I could say that I had a great moral position against, uh, becoming involved, 2173 03:49:13,375 --> 03:49:17,834 and ever-involved in war, ever-involved in shooting, ever-involved in killing, 2174 03:49:17,834 --> 03:49:20,000 and if I'd made the argument in those terms-- 2175 03:49:20,000 --> 03:49:22,542 I must say, if one made those arg-- the argument in those terms, 2176 03:49:22,542 --> 03:49:24,208 one would have gotten nowhere, 2177 03:49:24,208 --> 03:49:27,000 because that would have indicated that you were not in tune with the times. 2178 03:49:27,000 --> 03:49:32,041 In the Pentagon Papers, you will never find anyone saying, "This is immoral." 2179 03:49:32,041 --> 03:49:33,875 Or even, "This is illegal." 2180 03:49:33,875 --> 03:49:36,583 You were only listened to, 2181 03:49:36,583 --> 03:49:40,291 to the extent that you could develop a valid argument 2182 03:49:40,291 --> 03:49:44,125 on grounds of national interest or even on military grounds. 2183 03:49:44,125 --> 03:49:48,041 In weighing pros and cons, to eliminate such considerations, 2184 03:49:48,041 --> 03:49:55,083 uh, uh, may mean that a, that a totally criminal and immoral consideration, 2185 03:49:55,083 --> 03:49:58,417 uh, gets very far in the planning process, precisely because, 2186 03:49:58,417 --> 03:50:02,125 there are no sufficiently practical objections to be made against it. 2187 03:50:02,125 --> 03:50:04,291 Ophuls: Uh-huh. It's merely murderous. 2188 03:50:04,291 --> 03:50:07,542 I remember wondering, "Should I resign? 2189 03:50:07,542 --> 03:50:11,250 Uh, or "Should I stay?" The oldest question. 2190 03:50:11,250 --> 03:50:15,333 Uh, I didn't resign then. Uh, I was very glad I didn't. 2191 03:50:15,333 --> 03:50:17,041 I didn't want to have to resign. 2192 03:50:17,041 --> 03:50:20,667 So, I don't want to-- (sighs) 2193 03:50:20,667 --> 03:50:27,125 You know, I do-- I, I don't want to, uh, take any credit for myself and blame the others. 2194 03:50:27,125 --> 03:50:34,250 I am uneasy about, uh, uh, passing judgment on people with whom I was associated, 2195 03:50:34,250 --> 03:50:37,000 in your phrase, "in the same power structure." 2196 03:50:37,000 --> 03:50:40,208 Ophuls: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I think you understand why. 2197 03:50:40,208 --> 03:50:43,500 Uh, the fact is, of course, that no one higher than a lieutenant 2198 03:50:43,500 --> 03:50:45,917 was tried even for My Lai, 2199 03:50:45,917 --> 03:50:48,917 and of course, uh, My Lai was comparable 2200 03:50:48,917 --> 03:50:51,417 to any field-level incident in World War II. 2201 03:50:51,417 --> 03:50:55,750 Uh, they were not able even to get company commanders and, uh, battalion commanders. 2202 03:50:55,750 --> 03:50:58,291 Ophuls: Over My Lai, General Koster, Colonel Henderson. 2203 03:50:58,291 --> 03:51:00,708 They were flying over-- They were all up-- they were all up there, 2204 03:51:00,708 --> 03:51:02,041 in helicopters, at various levels. 2205 03:51:02,041 --> 03:51:04,125 Right. But all in radio communication. 2206 03:51:04,125 --> 03:51:09,041 Every family over there, just about, in those fields, 2207 03:51:09,041 --> 03:51:12,542 lost a brother, a son, a sister, 2208 03:51:12,542 --> 03:51:17,041 some way-- to Americans, in some brutal way, 2209 03:51:17,041 --> 03:51:21,083 and I can understand what I would have become if some army came in here 2210 03:51:21,083 --> 03:51:23,166 and did this to my family. 2211 03:51:23,166 --> 03:51:25,375 I, too, would have become a VC. 2212 03:51:25,375 --> 03:51:27,208 So we created the VC. 2213 03:51:27,208 --> 03:51:30,000 My, uh, father was a coal miner, 2214 03:51:30,000 --> 03:51:33,792 and he had a third-grade education, 2215 03:51:33,792 --> 03:51:37,959 but a very intelligent man, he wa-- you know, he was very swift. 2216 03:51:37,959 --> 03:51:42,291 We-- There wasn't, uh, the money to buy things, 2217 03:51:42,291 --> 03:51:44,959 but I think the people who have money to buy things today 2218 03:51:44,959 --> 03:51:48,458 miss many of the very finest things we had. 2219 03:51:48,458 --> 03:51:51,583 The radio together, the, uh, walking together, 2220 03:51:51,583 --> 03:51:54,041 the hills together, uh, being a family. 2221 03:51:54,041 --> 03:51:55,291 It was a very close family. 2222 03:51:55,291 --> 03:51:58,125 I had my first, uh, shotgun when I was six. 2223 03:51:58,125 --> 03:52:00,291 I was good, but I wasn't the best around. 2224 03:52:00,291 --> 03:52:04,125 I have never seen my father miss with a shot in his life. 2225 03:52:04,125 --> 03:52:05,917 Ophuls: I see. We took people from the city. 2226 03:52:05,917 --> 03:52:07,625 Uh-huh. We, we used to guide people. 2227 03:52:07,625 --> 03:52:12,834 and the rule was that, uh, we never fired until they had fired. 2228 03:52:12,834 --> 03:52:16,417 If they had missed, then I could shoot... (gunshot) 2229 03:52:16,417 --> 03:52:18,208 and kill the rabbit, and they got it. 2230 03:52:18,208 --> 03:52:21,625 We gave it to them, the game. 2231 03:52:21,625 --> 03:52:26,333 I come from a town of immigrants, really. 2232 03:52:26,333 --> 03:52:29,834 These people were, were, were very fond of this country, 2233 03:52:29,834 --> 03:52:31,542 and to prove that they were Americans, 2234 03:52:31,542 --> 03:52:36,041 the ultimate stamp of approval was you were in the military, 2235 03:52:36,041 --> 03:52:39,542 you were wearing the uniform of the United States. 2236 03:52:39,542 --> 03:52:42,000 I don't ever remember a, a word-- 2237 03:52:42,000 --> 03:52:47,500 an adverse word ever spoken about the military in my hometown, ever. 2238 03:52:47,500 --> 03:52:51,000 When I had started out with what was wrong in the army, 2239 03:52:51,000 --> 03:52:53,375 it was at the very lowest levels, 2240 03:52:53,375 --> 03:52:55,583 and I really could not bring myself to believe 2241 03:52:55,583 --> 03:53:00,333 that the generals were complicit in it or that corrupt. 2242 03:53:00,333 --> 03:53:04,417 I felt that it was being done at the colonel level, and at one general, 2243 03:53:04,417 --> 03:53:08,208 and when the higher-ups knew, that they would correct this, 2244 03:53:08,208 --> 03:53:10,291 and it may be naive, but this is what happened. 2245 03:53:10,291 --> 03:53:14,291 When I get to Saigon, I find out now General Abrams is in on it. 2246 03:53:14,291 --> 03:53:16,917 General Bowers and many other generals, 2247 03:53:16,917 --> 03:53:20,166 and then I became-- It came to me, "This is only in Vietnam. 2248 03:53:20,166 --> 03:53:23,875 When I get back to the United States, they will correct this." 2249 03:53:23,875 --> 03:53:25,542 Then when I get back to the United States, 2250 03:53:25,542 --> 03:53:29,375 I find out it goes up to Westmoreland, the corruptness. 2251 03:53:29,375 --> 03:53:31,208 Because, I mean, I-- Ophuls: You mean the cover-up. 2252 03:53:31,208 --> 03:53:33,083 The knowledge of what had been going on? 2253 03:53:33,083 --> 03:53:36,166 And the threats, too, you know, the, the actual threats to me, "Shut up or else..." 2254 03:53:36,166 --> 03:53:39,625 Ophuls: The very specific area of your controversy 2255 03:53:39,625 --> 03:53:42,125 with the army concerns, uh, Mm-hmm. 2256 03:53:42,125 --> 03:53:46,542 what has become known as the Valentine's Day Massacre. 2257 03:53:46,542 --> 03:53:49,291 Okay, uh, on February the 14th, 2258 03:53:49,291 --> 03:53:52,834 I got a call on the radio from Colonel Franklin, the Brigade Deputy Commander, 2259 03:53:52,834 --> 03:53:58,250 and he told me that there was a Vietnamese National Police unit coming in, 2260 03:53:58,250 --> 03:53:59,625 and I would turn prisoners over. 2261 03:53:59,625 --> 03:54:01,542 They had an American officer with them, a lieutenant. 2262 03:54:01,542 --> 03:54:03,125 Then the helicopters started landing, 2263 03:54:03,125 --> 03:54:08,000 and their shooting started, and as I came south into a clearing-- 2264 03:54:08,000 --> 03:54:10,708 Let's say I come in at, at, at six o'clock. 2265 03:54:10,708 --> 03:54:13,000 At seven o'clock is standing the lieutenant. 2266 03:54:13,000 --> 03:54:17,125 They've got these people lined up, and there are four dead laying there bleeding, 2267 03:54:17,125 --> 03:54:18,750 and they're already dead. 2268 03:54:18,750 --> 03:54:20,667 They've got the other people lined up right there, 2269 03:54:20,667 --> 03:54:24,417 except that up at one o'clock, right across, 2270 03:54:24,417 --> 03:54:30,625 across the circle from me, is a Vietnamese, and he's got this woman-- 2271 03:54:30,625 --> 03:54:32,583 This is-- It's hard to say the way it is, 2272 03:54:32,583 --> 03:54:36,291 because he had her pulling her hair back with his left hand, 2273 03:54:36,291 --> 03:54:38,792 and he had the right hand with the knife all the way around, 2274 03:54:38,792 --> 03:54:44,583 but not, not across her throat, but all the way around and dug in over here on her neck, 2275 03:54:44,583 --> 03:54:48,000 and there was one child that was holding onto her clothing, 2276 03:54:48,000 --> 03:54:50,458 and then they had a second child, was-- 2277 03:54:50,458 --> 03:54:52,083 Behind him, there was another Vietnamese, 2278 03:54:52,083 --> 03:54:54,041 had this child's face buried in the sand, 2279 03:54:54,041 --> 03:54:56,458 and was tramping on the back of his head with his foot. 2280 03:54:56,458 --> 03:54:59,625 and the guy who had the knife looked me right in the eye 2281 03:54:59,625 --> 03:55:01,875 and cut her throat, and let her sink to the sand. 2282 03:55:01,875 --> 03:55:03,458 She just sinks-- She just dropped, you know. 2283 03:55:03,458 --> 03:55:06,375 I went back and I reported to Franklin. 2284 03:55:06,375 --> 03:55:10,125 There was an American officer in charge, and I wanted something done about it. 2285 03:55:10,125 --> 03:55:13,333 Franklin then told me, "Okay," that he would take care of it, 2286 03:55:13,333 --> 03:55:16,166 but he didn't want me talking about it because-- 2287 03:55:16,166 --> 03:55:18,667 Well, I-I can't remember the exact words, but what it was is that 2288 03:55:18,667 --> 03:55:22,667 he didn't want me to interfere with the investigation, that he would handle it. 2289 03:55:22,667 --> 03:55:25,166 Which, which he never did. Until the day, I-- 2290 03:55:25,166 --> 03:55:29,625 Very few days before I was out, now, I had to sit in the office 2291 03:55:29,625 --> 03:55:33,291 of the Under Secretary of the Army, Kenneth BeLieu, 2292 03:55:33,291 --> 03:55:35,667 who I had known for 20 years, 2293 03:55:35,667 --> 03:55:38,375 and have him tell me, "Yes, it's a cover-up, 2294 03:55:38,375 --> 03:55:40,375 "but it's for the good of the country, 2295 03:55:40,375 --> 03:55:43,125 "and don't give ammunition to the peaceniks. 2296 03:55:43,125 --> 03:55:44,875 "Forget about what happened in Vietnam. 2297 03:55:44,875 --> 03:55:47,291 Go on with your own career." And everything else. 2298 03:55:47,291 --> 03:55:50,917 I still couldn't believe it. Ev-even when-- Even when it was occurring. 2299 03:55:50,917 --> 03:55:54,291 I went in, and I had to resign from the Army, 2300 03:55:54,291 --> 03:55:58,542 and, uh, as, as things never seem to go right in the Army anymore, 2301 03:55:58,542 --> 03:56:02,834 a fellow handed me this pen, and when I went to write, the pen broke. 2302 03:56:02,834 --> 03:56:06,750 I arrived at the decision that I was not going back to Vietnam. 2303 03:56:06,750 --> 03:56:09,583 I would, uh, I would not go, 2304 03:56:09,583 --> 03:56:14,208 and the only recourse for me at that point was desertion. 2305 03:56:14,208 --> 03:56:18,375 I deserted, uh, I spent a very brief time in Canada, 2306 03:56:18,375 --> 03:56:21,166 crossed the border, uh, at Detroit 2307 03:56:21,166 --> 03:56:23,875 with the help of my family, 2308 03:56:23,875 --> 03:56:26,750 and, uh, went underground here in the United States. 2309 03:56:26,750 --> 03:56:30,417 My father was a disabled World War II veteran. 2310 03:56:30,417 --> 03:56:36,667 He was, uh, unemployed mostly, due to the fact that, uh, of his disability. 2311 03:56:36,667 --> 03:56:42,291 He just couldn't get a job and would end up working mostly menial jobs. 2312 03:56:42,291 --> 03:56:45,417 I always, uh, liked the neighborhood that I grew up in. 2313 03:56:45,417 --> 03:56:48,083 It was mostly people like ourselves, 2314 03:56:48,083 --> 03:56:51,000 working poor, and unemployed poor people. 2315 03:56:51,000 --> 03:56:55,500 So our school was fully integrated, uh, we had... 2316 03:56:55,500 --> 03:56:57,417 Ophuls: By force of circumstance. 2317 03:56:57,417 --> 03:56:59,917 Right, by force of, uh, economics. 2318 03:56:59,917 --> 03:57:03,291 f all the thousands who, who left the United States, 2319 03:57:03,291 --> 03:57:06,875 um, probably only a certain percentage will attempt to come back, 2320 03:57:06,875 --> 03:57:09,834 and I think they should know that punishment awaits them. 2321 03:57:09,834 --> 03:57:14,083 Um, I would be very much opposed to a general amnesty. 2322 03:57:14,083 --> 03:57:18,625 I'm opposed as, as one who has lost her husband there. 2323 03:57:18,625 --> 03:57:21,875 I think I can speak for those who still have someone missing. 2324 03:57:21,875 --> 03:57:24,959 Naturally, they feel they've given something 2325 03:57:24,959 --> 03:57:29,792 and, uh, they're certainly not going to feel any too pleasant towards someone 2326 03:57:29,792 --> 03:57:33,083 who ran out on his duty, so to speak. 2327 03:57:33,083 --> 03:57:35,792 Here, I'd, I'd gone their route. It was evident. 2328 03:57:35,792 --> 03:57:40,166 I, I, I did believe in that war. I did have medals. 2329 03:57:40,166 --> 03:57:42,708 I was a model soldier for four and a half years. 2330 03:57:42,708 --> 03:57:45,583 The criminals in the Nuremberg situation were saying, uh, 2331 03:57:45,583 --> 03:57:47,917 "We were only following orders in what we did." 2332 03:57:47,917 --> 03:57:50,250 And they were tried and convicted, and now these men are saying, 2333 03:57:50,250 --> 03:57:52,000 "We refuse to carry out those orders." 2334 03:57:52,000 --> 03:57:53,333 And they're being tried and convicted. 2335 03:57:53,333 --> 03:57:57,041 This whole argument that Nuremberg made it a war crime 2336 03:57:57,041 --> 03:58:01,792 to join in, in the army in Vietnam is, uh, is based on nothing. 2337 03:58:01,792 --> 03:58:03,542 There's nothing about Nuremberg that says that. 2338 03:58:03,542 --> 03:58:06,000 My court-martial was, I think, 2339 03:58:06,000 --> 03:58:09,834 the first law case where Nuremberg was invoked, 2340 03:58:09,834 --> 03:58:13,166 but the peculiar thing about it was that the defense didn't invoke it. 2341 03:58:13,166 --> 03:58:15,166 Uh, the military invoked it. 2342 03:58:15,166 --> 03:58:17,417 Uh, the military essentially said, 2343 03:58:17,417 --> 03:58:22,792 "Look, we don't care whether what Dr. Levy did was medically ethical. 2344 03:58:22,792 --> 03:58:26,041 "and we don't care whether he had, uh, freedom of speech. 2345 03:58:26,041 --> 03:58:28,917 "The only defense that we will accept is, in fact, 2346 03:58:28,917 --> 03:58:32,542 "if you can show that the order to train Special Forces men, 2347 03:58:32,542 --> 03:58:36,208 "uh, was countermanded by considerations of Nuremberg." 2348 03:58:36,208 --> 03:58:40,125 We brought three witnesses, um, who, between them, 2349 03:58:40,125 --> 03:58:44,333 had had experience in over half of the Special Forces camps, 2350 03:58:44,333 --> 03:58:50,250 uh, in Vietnam and just unequivocally, I think, showed that Nuremberg was, in f-- 2351 03:58:50,250 --> 03:58:52,834 the code of Nuremberg was, in fact, being violated 2352 03:58:52,834 --> 03:58:55,250 with great consistency by the Special Forces. 2353 03:58:55,250 --> 03:59:00,125 Uh, there was no way that we could win with that panel of career Army officers, 2354 03:59:00,125 --> 03:59:03,542 and, sure enough, we lost. Uh, we lost on every count, 2355 03:59:03,542 --> 03:59:08,834 and, uh, was ultimately sentenced to, uh, three years, supposedly, at hard labor 2356 03:59:08,834 --> 03:59:12,750 and a, uh, the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge. 2357 03:59:12,750 --> 03:59:14,792 Ophuls: Did you serve them? Yeah, I served them. 2358 03:59:14,792 --> 03:59:17,583 There is evidence in that case that he was being called upon 2359 03:59:17,583 --> 03:59:22,959 to give, uh, to give instruction in the use of medicine for political and military purposes, 2360 03:59:22,959 --> 03:59:27,458 which, uh, is quite contrary to the laws of war, and that if that were established, 2361 03:59:27,458 --> 03:59:31,625 that would be a violation of the laws of war and he would be justified in refusing. 2362 03:59:31,625 --> 03:59:35,333 I can, uh, certainly well envision fighting in some wars. 2363 03:59:35,333 --> 03:59:38,208 Uh, I just simply could not envision fighting in this war. 2364 03:59:38,208 --> 03:59:43,375 We were one of about two dozen, uh, major hospitals in Vietnam. 2365 03:59:43,375 --> 03:59:46,583 One time a, a VC was brought in. 2366 03:59:46,583 --> 03:59:48,834 He'd lost a great deal of blood. 2367 03:59:48,834 --> 03:59:52,750 So we had blood expanders going in him, uh, plasma, 2368 03:59:52,750 --> 03:59:55,542 and a medic, this is a medic that did that, 2369 03:59:55,542 --> 03:59:58,792 came by and shut the valve off and, uh-- 2370 03:59:58,792 --> 04:00:02,291 Which would have assured, assured the man's death. 2371 04:00:02,291 --> 04:00:06,166 I turned it back on, told him to leave the, leave the thing alone. 2372 04:00:06,166 --> 04:00:10,208 He shut it off again, and I turned it back on, 2373 04:00:10,208 --> 04:00:13,208 and then he just reached for it, and I hit him, 2374 04:00:13,208 --> 04:00:15,208 and ended up beating the shit out of him. 2375 04:00:15,208 --> 04:00:18,125 As, uh, I saw more and more similar instances 2376 04:00:18,125 --> 04:00:22,041 I, uh, I had to stop and think, you know? I mean, "What is this? 2377 04:00:22,041 --> 04:00:27,458 "What, what is making, uh, guys that I knew on the block, 2378 04:00:27,458 --> 04:00:32,708 "uh, just average guys, mistreat the Vietnamese so badly? 2379 04:00:32,708 --> 04:00:34,834 Hate them s-- with so much passion?" 2380 04:00:34,834 --> 04:00:37,250 As a judge, I would be more lenient 2381 04:00:37,250 --> 04:00:39,583 on someone who was repentant. 2382 04:00:39,583 --> 04:00:43,792 Someone, um, who thought over the lives that were possibly lost in his place. 2383 04:00:43,792 --> 04:00:47,291 Now, those who, uh, say they have no sympathy for my boy 2384 04:00:47,291 --> 04:00:49,875 or sympathy for my wife, I respect their feeling. 2385 04:00:49,875 --> 04:00:53,125 Look, every man is entitled to his own feeling. I can't force 'em. 2386 04:00:53,125 --> 04:00:58,750 Right now, Louis, uh, Louis Simon is in a stockade at Fort Dix. 2387 04:00:58,750 --> 04:01:02,500 The military-- He did the very same thing that I did. 2388 04:01:02,500 --> 04:01:04,667 He publicly surrendered to the military. 2389 04:01:04,667 --> 04:01:06,834 Came all the way back from Sweden to do so. 2390 04:01:06,834 --> 04:01:08,834 When he deserted, I had no idea at all. 2391 04:01:08,834 --> 04:01:14,708 He did it on his own. Possibly, he felt there would be great opposition on my part. 2392 04:01:14,708 --> 04:01:17,542 Therefore, I had no opportunity to argue with him at all. 2393 04:01:17,542 --> 04:01:19,166 Ophuls: Uh, thinking back on it, 2394 04:01:19,166 --> 04:01:22,667 would there have been great opposition on your part, do you think? 2395 04:01:22,667 --> 04:01:24,708 In 1968? Mm. 2396 04:01:24,708 --> 04:01:27,250 There would have been quite a bit of it. Yes. 2397 04:01:27,250 --> 04:01:31,667 My feelings, uh, they waiver. They're ambivalent. 2398 04:01:31,667 --> 04:01:34,667 It's like loving and hating somebody. 2399 04:01:34,667 --> 04:01:37,083 I was proud of him being in the army. 2400 04:01:37,083 --> 04:01:40,208 Uh, I had been in the Second World War. 2401 04:01:40,208 --> 04:01:43,125 I thought it was the proper thing to do at that time, 2402 04:01:43,125 --> 04:01:48,208 but the point is, uh, should one do what your country asks you to do, 2403 04:01:48,208 --> 04:01:53,000 whether it's right or l-- wrong? Shouldn't one stop for a moment and analyze? 2404 04:01:53,000 --> 04:01:55,166 "What am I doing? What has happened?" 2405 04:01:55,166 --> 04:01:57,750 I would far more respect my son if he-- 2406 04:01:57,750 --> 04:02:00,458 I would feel I've raised him right if, if he would go 2407 04:02:00,458 --> 04:02:04,917 when his country needs him to go, uh, without question. 2408 04:02:04,917 --> 04:02:07,375 His wife is a Swedish citizen. 2409 04:02:07,375 --> 04:02:09,542 She's pregnant now. She had to return, 2410 04:02:09,542 --> 04:02:11,875 'cause she was with us for a while, 2411 04:02:11,875 --> 04:02:14,625 but she had to go back to Stockholm to finish her course. 2412 04:02:14,625 --> 04:02:17,583 She's graduating this June, and she is worried. 2413 04:02:17,583 --> 04:02:21,041 She calls constantly, and we're waiting. 2414 04:02:21,041 --> 04:02:22,417 Ophuls: How about your wife? 2415 04:02:22,417 --> 04:02:24,208 Simon: She's quite affected by it. 2416 04:02:24,208 --> 04:02:28,625 This is our first boy, and, uh, she was quite devoted with him, to him. 2417 04:02:28,625 --> 04:02:32,083 She was left with him alone when I went overseas. 2418 04:02:32,083 --> 04:02:35,917 He was born, uh, while I was away, 2419 04:02:35,917 --> 04:02:38,500 and I didn't see him until I came back two years later. 2420 04:02:38,500 --> 04:02:42,083 Robert Ransom: Louise was about six months pregnant when I went to Europe. 2421 04:02:42,083 --> 04:02:45,542 Uh, you left in August, and, uh, Mike was born in October. October. 2422 04:02:45,542 --> 04:02:49,291 Louise: I had this terrible feeling, and I couldn't reach Bob 2423 04:02:49,291 --> 04:02:51,542 to tell him that he had a son, 2424 04:02:51,542 --> 04:02:54,583 and we really treasure the fact 2425 04:02:54,583 --> 04:02:58,917 that he finally got a cable, signed by Eisenhower, 2426 04:02:58,917 --> 04:03:04,417 announcing that Robert Crawford Ransom, Junior, had been born and all was well. 2427 04:03:04,417 --> 04:03:07,583 Simon: This boy was born while I was away, 2428 04:03:07,583 --> 04:03:09,291 and here we may have the same thing, 2429 04:03:09,291 --> 04:03:13,375 that his child may be born without him being present. 2430 04:03:13,375 --> 04:03:16,125 Quite ironic. Ophuls: For opposite reasons. 2431 04:03:16,125 --> 04:03:17,458 Isn't it something? 2432 04:03:17,458 --> 04:03:20,000 Ophuls: But you did see your son. I did see my son. 2433 04:03:20,000 --> 04:03:22,166 They became very well-acquainted. 2434 04:03:22,166 --> 04:03:26,542 I might say that our second son was born nine months later. 2435 04:03:26,542 --> 04:03:28,417 Robert: That was a very happy month. 2436 04:03:28,417 --> 04:03:29,542 Ophuls: Very happy month. 2437 04:03:33,708 --> 04:03:35,708 I remember somebody saying to us, 2438 04:03:35,708 --> 04:03:41,542 "Well, you can feel so comforted because he died for his country." 2439 04:03:41,542 --> 04:03:45,792 And we realized... 2440 04:03:45,792 --> 04:03:49,583 that his death had done his country no good, 2441 04:03:49,583 --> 04:03:55,792 and, uh, we realized... it was a s-- 2442 04:03:55,792 --> 04:03:59,500 It was a developing process, but I think that we realized 2443 04:03:59,500 --> 04:04:03,208 that his country had wasted him. 2444 04:04:03,208 --> 04:04:06,166 Uh, I guess I had been an influence on him 2445 04:04:06,166 --> 04:04:08,834 that he ought to, if he was going to serve, 2446 04:04:08,834 --> 04:04:15,000 to serve in the highest capacity available to him, where he could do the most good. 2447 04:04:15,000 --> 04:04:18,708 So the draft board held off long enough for him to enlist, 2448 04:04:18,708 --> 04:04:20,125 so that he could go to OCS. 2449 04:04:20,125 --> 04:04:22,041 Louise: Officer Candidate School. 2450 04:04:22,041 --> 04:04:28,125 And then, of course, when he knew that he had his orders to Vietnam, 2451 04:04:28,125 --> 04:04:30,333 we had a lot of discussion, 2452 04:04:30,333 --> 04:04:35,542 and, uh, of course, at that point, 2453 04:04:35,542 --> 04:04:40,208 not to go would have meant a six-year jail sentence for him. 2454 04:04:40,208 --> 04:04:42,291 You know, he really liked people, 2455 04:04:42,291 --> 04:04:47,083 and he cared about them and, um, I think he had to wrestle a whole lot with himself. 2456 04:04:47,083 --> 04:04:50,583 Plus, he was on-- you know, 22 years old, 2457 04:04:50,583 --> 04:04:52,917 and he didn't want to go to jail for six years. So-- 2458 04:04:52,917 --> 04:04:56,667 Robert: But when he left the house, after his terminal leave, 2459 04:04:56,667 --> 04:04:59,125 to take his plane to Vietnam, 2460 04:04:59,125 --> 04:05:03,041 he told us very frankly that he couldn't tell us at that point 2461 04:05:03,041 --> 04:05:05,750 whether he was gonna get on that plane or not, 2462 04:05:05,750 --> 04:05:08,375 and I, I, I've always kicked myself ever since 2463 04:05:08,375 --> 04:05:11,208 for the fact that I didn't lean on him harder then 2464 04:05:11,208 --> 04:05:16,083 to live up to his conscience, which I could read, uh, 2465 04:05:16,083 --> 04:05:18,375 and not get aboard. 2466 04:05:18,375 --> 04:05:21,750 All I did was tell him that we'd understood 2467 04:05:21,750 --> 04:05:24,834 and supported him completely if he didn't wish to, 2468 04:05:24,834 --> 04:05:27,959 and that we'd get him the best trial lawyer in the United States 2469 04:05:27,959 --> 04:05:29,333 and fight it as hard as we could, 2470 04:05:29,333 --> 04:05:35,458 and, uh, yeah, in that frame of reference, he left, and uh-- 2471 04:05:35,458 --> 04:05:40,041 But I-- Bob has always blamed himself for not saying more, 2472 04:05:40,041 --> 04:05:45,458 and I think that he's wrong to do that, because Mike was his own man, you know. 2473 04:05:45,458 --> 04:05:50,125 He, he could make up his own mind, and it was his decision to go. 2474 04:05:50,125 --> 04:05:52,125 He was only there two months 2475 04:05:52,125 --> 04:05:54,291 and, uh, but he did write a lot, 2476 04:05:54,291 --> 04:05:56,458 and he said everybody in the countryside hated him. 2477 04:05:56,458 --> 04:05:59,792 Robert: He was assigned to the Eleventh Light Infantry Brigade 2478 04:05:59,792 --> 04:06:03,875 and, and the Eleventh was the one that committed the My Lai massacre, and... 2479 04:06:03,875 --> 04:06:06,041 Louise: He wrote clearly, "I just don't understand. 2480 04:06:06,041 --> 04:06:10,208 This smiling farmer by day is my enemy at night." 2481 04:06:10,208 --> 04:06:14,959 From the day he got that assignment to the day he died, 2482 04:06:14,959 --> 04:06:20,667 um, the platoon, so far as we know, and from what he told us, 2483 04:06:20,667 --> 04:06:22,959 never fired a shot in anger, uh, 2484 04:06:22,959 --> 04:06:27,000 and they just kept being twiddled away by, by mines. 2485 04:06:27,000 --> 04:06:30,667 He said, "I'd machine-gun every man, woman and child in that village," 2486 04:06:30,667 --> 04:06:33,708 for having laughed at them after he'd lost a man. 2487 04:06:33,708 --> 04:06:38,667 And the thing that-- as, again, we understand much more, 2488 04:06:38,667 --> 04:06:42,875 in this My Lai episode, which we didn't understand when we first read his letters, 2489 04:06:42,875 --> 04:06:48,875 was that he was experiencing the outright naked hatred 2490 04:06:48,875 --> 04:06:52,250 of the people that he thought he was fighting for. You know, he-- 2491 04:06:52,250 --> 04:06:55,125 And, of course, the United States government didn't bother to tell Mike 2492 04:06:55,125 --> 04:06:58,708 didn't bother to tell Mike that My Lai had occurred the week before and that-- 2493 04:06:58,708 --> 04:07:02,417 If they had, he might have expected a little resentment on their part. 2494 04:07:02,417 --> 04:07:07,959 Uh, well, we got a telegram that he had been very seriously wounded, 2495 04:07:07,959 --> 04:07:14,875 and, uh, so we instantly, uh, got on the phone. 2496 04:07:14,875 --> 04:07:19,083 Bob wanted to follow up on the report, 2497 04:07:19,083 --> 04:07:23,375 and, uh, he did, uh, hit a mine 2498 04:07:23,375 --> 04:07:28,041 and, uh, he died, uh, eight days later. 2499 04:07:28,041 --> 04:07:32,542 Robert: And they said, well, "Somebody's on the way to see you, Mr. Ransom." 2500 04:07:32,542 --> 04:07:34,542 And we knew perfectly well what that meant, 2501 04:07:34,542 --> 04:07:38,083 and then we went through that gruesome situation, 2502 04:07:38,083 --> 04:07:41,208 where they have a couple of officers come and call on you, 2503 04:07:41,208 --> 04:07:44,834 and they have a little book that says what to do when a soldier dies, 2504 04:07:44,834 --> 04:07:46,208 and they-- 2505 04:07:46,208 --> 04:07:51,458 I won't, uh, go through all those horrible details. 2506 04:07:51,458 --> 04:07:53,917 Keating: Purple Heart. The National Defense Medal. 2507 04:07:53,917 --> 04:07:56,875 Medals that he received from the Vietnamese government. 2508 04:07:56,875 --> 04:08:00,000 The children are too small to recall their father, 2509 04:08:00,000 --> 04:08:04,041 and I wanted them especially to be proud that he served his country. 2510 04:08:04,041 --> 04:08:06,708 Especially in a war when it would have been easy to do otherwise. 2511 04:08:06,708 --> 04:08:11,000 Every s-- American soldier who was killed in Vietnam 2512 04:08:11,000 --> 04:08:15,000 was posthumously awarded with two Vietnamese medals 2513 04:08:15,000 --> 04:08:17,417 that are just revolting, and the-- 2514 04:08:17,417 --> 04:08:19,792 You get a little message from the president, too, 2515 04:08:19,792 --> 04:08:26,166 about cooperating with the, with his forces in stopping the "Red Menace." 2516 04:08:26,166 --> 04:08:31,625 Uh, that wasn't what the war was all about, as far as, as I'm concerned. 2517 04:08:31,625 --> 04:08:35,708 Nobody can charge Lyndon Johnson with anything anymore. 2518 04:08:35,708 --> 04:08:40,166 Uh, Robert McNamara, George Bundy, the best and the brightest, 2519 04:08:40,166 --> 04:08:44,625 are certainly not going to be paying any penalties. 2520 04:08:44,625 --> 04:08:50,542 It's in the light of that, that the cause of amnesty becomes even more important. 2521 04:08:50,542 --> 04:08:55,125 We must let those people come back to America. This is their country. 2522 04:08:55,125 --> 04:08:58,834 Who knows which of those men in Canada has the key 2523 04:08:58,834 --> 04:09:02,166 to the preservation of the ecology? 2524 04:09:02,166 --> 04:09:04,834 Who knows which man has the key to peace? 2525 04:09:04,834 --> 04:09:07,917 How many men who really love this country more than men 2526 04:09:07,917 --> 04:09:10,583 who went and fought are among them? 2527 04:09:10,583 --> 04:09:11,875 So they all come home. 2528 04:09:11,875 --> 04:09:15,583 Those men who, who want revenge, forgive them, 2529 04:09:15,583 --> 04:09:20,208 and they, in turn, must forgive Nixon, Westmoreland, Calley, 2530 04:09:20,208 --> 04:09:23,083 and we must all sit down and say to ourselves, not, 2531 04:09:23,083 --> 04:09:26,125 "I was right and you were wrong," but, "What went wrong?" 2532 04:09:26,125 --> 04:09:31,708 There were many, uh, drafted young men who lost their lives because someone ran away, 2533 04:09:31,708 --> 04:09:34,083 and I, I just don't think you can let them off scot-free. 2534 04:09:34,083 --> 04:09:37,625 Herbert: Revenge takes more from the man who gets it 2535 04:09:37,625 --> 04:09:39,750 than the man that it is gotten from. 2536 04:09:39,750 --> 04:09:42,708 Both people lose something in the exchange. 2537 04:09:42,708 --> 04:09:46,375 I think we should let them come home. Yeah. Yeah. 2538 04:09:46,375 --> 04:09:50,500 Ophuls: There is a book, uh, that you may have read, 2539 04:09:50,500 --> 04:09:56,542 called, uh, Military Justice Is to Justice as Military Music Is to Music. 2540 04:09:56,542 --> 04:09:59,458 Right. Uh, have you read the book? Do you agree with it? 2541 04:09:59,458 --> 04:10:01,917 I looked through a good deal of it. Yes, uh, well-- 2542 04:10:01,917 --> 04:10:03,542 The title seems very amusing. 2543 04:10:03,542 --> 04:10:06,500 The title is amusing, and I'm afraid it, uh, pinked me in a tender spot, 2544 04:10:06,500 --> 04:10:10,875 because, uh, one of, of my hobbies is, is, doing a little composing, 2545 04:10:10,875 --> 04:10:14,375 and most of it has come out as military music, as a matter of fact. 2546 04:10:14,375 --> 04:10:18,000 Yeah, I do have, uh, have one here, if you would like to hear a bit of it. 2547 04:10:18,000 --> 04:10:19,083 Ophuls: Yes. 2548 04:10:24,041 --> 04:10:26,166 (marching band music plays) 2549 04:10:26,166 --> 04:10:29,542 Taylor: Those marches are being played by a band in Central Park 2550 04:10:29,542 --> 04:10:31,125 that I was conducting. 2551 04:10:31,125 --> 04:10:33,375 ♪ ♪ 2552 04:10:42,250 --> 04:10:47,125 Ophuls: Your book, Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, 2553 04:10:47,125 --> 04:10:51,250 has a-- what is it called in English? A dedi, dedicace? 2554 04:10:51,250 --> 04:10:53,250 Taylor: Dedication? Ophuls: Dedication, yes. 2555 04:10:53,250 --> 04:10:54,917 What is the dedication? 2556 04:10:56,417 --> 04:10:57,959 To the flag. 2557 04:10:57,959 --> 04:11:00,125 To the flag and the liberty and justice for which it stands. 2558 04:11:00,125 --> 04:11:04,750 Ophuls: On that trip to Hanoi, you went with people who don't, perhaps, 2559 04:11:04,750 --> 04:11:07,917 share these opinions about the American flag. 2560 04:11:07,917 --> 04:11:10,333 Taylor: One of them was an outright pacifist. 2561 04:11:10,333 --> 04:11:12,417 One of them was much more left than I am. 2562 04:11:12,417 --> 04:11:15,625 We saw things quite differently, and on coming out, 2563 04:11:15,625 --> 04:11:18,834 we didn't wish to give an impression of disunity, 2564 04:11:18,834 --> 04:11:21,166 and, uh, there was a press conference in Hong Kong 2565 04:11:21,166 --> 04:11:25,083 where the media had asked about the bombing of the Bach Mai Hospital. 2566 04:11:25,083 --> 04:11:28,625 We had all four seen the hospital a few hours after the bombing. 2567 04:11:28,625 --> 04:11:30,375 We all four knew that it'd been bombed. 2568 04:11:30,375 --> 04:11:32,166 There was no question about that. 2569 04:11:32,166 --> 04:11:35,291 The Pentagon building had denied that the hospital had been hit, 2570 04:11:35,291 --> 04:11:37,083 or said it was only very slightly hit. 2571 04:11:37,083 --> 04:11:41,125 We all four knew perfectly well it had been totally destroyed. 2572 04:11:41,125 --> 04:11:42,125 So we said that. 2573 04:11:42,125 --> 04:11:43,500 Reporter 1: Can you clarify that, sir? 2574 04:11:43,500 --> 04:11:45,750 If the particular hospital is the Bach Mai Hospital, 2575 04:11:45,750 --> 04:11:49,542 it's blown to smithereens. Completely destroyed. 2576 04:11:49,542 --> 04:11:54,291 But the next question was, uh, did, did we think it was done on purpose? 2577 04:11:54,291 --> 04:11:57,500 Reporter that this is intentional bombing of civilian areas? 2578 04:11:57,500 --> 04:12:00,667 That's a matter that we can't go into now. Not me, anyhow. 2579 04:12:00,667 --> 04:12:03,250 To that question, we would have given different answers, 2580 04:12:03,250 --> 04:12:07,166 and so I did not answer that question until two days later. 2581 04:12:07,166 --> 04:12:09,542 I wouldn't know. I just saw what I saw, and that's it. 2582 04:12:09,542 --> 04:12:11,667 Reporter 1: I'm sorry, uh, Mr. Taylor-- 2583 04:12:11,667 --> 04:12:14,750 I'd like to say, uh, I just don't think there's any such thing as an accidental bombing. 2584 04:12:14,750 --> 04:12:17,125 I think we're all full of a great many impressions 2585 04:12:17,125 --> 04:12:20,583 that we have not had time to digest fully and, and put in place, 2586 04:12:20,583 --> 04:12:24,375 and, uh, a lot of these questions, uh, require more considered answers 2587 04:12:24,375 --> 04:12:25,875 after we've had time to reflect. 2588 04:12:25,875 --> 04:12:27,875 Reporter 2: Is this a Hitler, Hitler-like crime, 2589 04:12:27,875 --> 04:12:30,000 as the North Vietnamese have been describing? 2590 04:12:30,000 --> 04:12:32,542 That's another question of the same kind, I'm afraid. 2591 04:12:32,542 --> 04:12:34,417 No, I wouldn't want to answer that now. 2592 04:12:34,417 --> 04:12:39,041 My answer, two days later, uh, was that I did not think that it had been done on purpose. 2593 04:12:39,041 --> 04:12:44,875 Uh, later on, uh, I obtained what seemed to me perfectly good substantiation of this. 2594 04:12:44,875 --> 04:12:47,417 The hospital, which I did not know at the time, 2595 04:12:47,417 --> 04:12:50,417 was only about a quarter of a mile from a military airport. 2596 04:12:50,417 --> 04:12:52,875 So, it seemed highly probable, if not certain, 2597 04:12:52,875 --> 04:12:58,542 that the bombing of the hospital was the result of a miss on the airfield. 2598 04:12:58,542 --> 04:13:03,333 This did not mean that the episode, uh, uh, seemed to me, 2599 04:13:03,333 --> 04:13:06,208 because unintentional, to be an admirable one. 2600 04:13:06,208 --> 04:13:10,250 To bomb that close to Hanoi, and in the vicinity of a hospital, 2601 04:13:10,250 --> 04:13:12,875 which they knew they were there-- was there, 2602 04:13:12,875 --> 04:13:17,750 was altogether too likely to result in hitting the hospital, which it did. 2603 04:13:17,750 --> 04:13:19,917 I think I've answered enough questions for this interview. 2604 04:13:19,917 --> 04:13:22,917 I'm not gonna speak anymore. I have too. 2605 04:13:22,917 --> 04:13:24,667 Herbert: It was in Madrid. 2606 04:13:24,667 --> 04:13:28,250 I had a few days off at Christmas, so I bought, uh, five Joan Baez records 2607 04:13:28,250 --> 04:13:33,458 and I took a room at the, uh, officers' BOQ, 2608 04:13:33,458 --> 04:13:36,333 and I was playing them in the BOQ, 2609 04:13:36,333 --> 04:13:38,542 and a fellow knocked on the door in civilian clothes 2610 04:13:38,542 --> 04:13:40,625 and he asked me, "Aren't those Joan Baez records?" 2611 04:13:40,625 --> 04:13:44,125 (singing "Parachutiste" in French) (crowd applauds) 2612 04:13:45,458 --> 04:13:48,583 And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Are you a fan?" 2613 04:13:48,583 --> 04:13:51,583 I said, "I don't know. How many records do you have to have to be a fan?" 2614 04:13:51,583 --> 04:13:54,458 He said, "Three." I said, "I'm a fan. You know, I have five. 2615 04:13:54,458 --> 04:13:56,959 I mean, I meet the requirements." 2616 04:13:56,959 --> 04:14:01,542 And he said, "Well, we don't, uh, we don't permit those records to be played in here." 2617 04:14:01,542 --> 04:14:03,959 And I said, "That's ridiculous. I mean, you now, why not?" 2618 04:14:03,959 --> 04:14:06,458 And he said, "She's a communist, you know." 2619 04:14:06,458 --> 04:14:08,125 I said, "No, I didn't know, you know?" 2620 04:14:08,125 --> 04:14:10,417 "But she's a good singer, and I've already paid for the records. 2621 04:14:10,417 --> 04:14:12,125 "I mean, I'm gonna play them." 2622 04:14:12,125 --> 04:14:15,458 And he said, "Well, if you play those records, you're gonna have to leave here." 2623 04:14:15,458 --> 04:14:19,500 (Joan Baez continues singing in French) 2624 04:14:19,500 --> 04:14:22,291 ♪ ♪ 2625 04:14:26,458 --> 04:14:28,166 Herbert: They were very willing to give me a slip. 2626 04:14:28,166 --> 04:14:31,333 "Non-availability. We don't have a room for this guy." 2627 04:14:31,333 --> 04:14:33,083 So I went down to live at the Madrid Hilton. 2628 04:14:33,083 --> 04:14:35,000 The Army paid for it and it was very, very nice. 2629 04:14:35,000 --> 04:14:37,708 I liked it (chuckling) very much, you know, 2630 04:14:37,708 --> 04:14:40,417 but, uh, I can thank Joan Baez for that. 2631 04:14:40,417 --> 04:14:41,708 ♪ ♪ 2632 04:14:41,708 --> 04:14:45,458 (continues singing "Parachutiste" in French) 2633 04:15:03,333 --> 04:15:04,708 (speaking French) 2634 04:15:10,166 --> 04:15:13,750 (Joan Baez continues singing) 2635 04:15:14,875 --> 04:15:17,750 (Favrelière speaking in French) 2636 04:15:26,500 --> 04:15:27,583 (Ophuls speaks French) 2637 04:15:29,208 --> 04:15:30,250 (speaks French) 2638 04:15:34,208 --> 04:15:35,250 (speaks French) 2639 04:15:53,750 --> 04:15:57,083 (Joan Baez continues singing) 2640 04:15:58,834 --> 04:16:01,125 (Alleg continues in French) 2641 04:16:36,625 --> 04:16:39,792 I had read Henri Alleg's "La Question," 2642 04:16:39,792 --> 04:16:44,125 uh, when it came out and had, um, in English, 2643 04:16:44,125 --> 04:16:49,125 and, uh, I'd been very happy at that time that I was not 2644 04:16:49,125 --> 04:16:53,041 the citizen of a country that had to read exposés like that. 2645 04:16:53,041 --> 04:16:56,458 That I was-- I felt sorry for the Frenchmen who had to read that book. 2646 04:16:56,458 --> 04:16:58,083 (speaking in French) 2647 04:17:04,375 --> 04:17:05,458 (speaking French) 2648 04:17:12,250 --> 04:17:13,333 (speaks French) 2649 04:18:07,500 --> 04:18:08,542 (speaks French) 2650 04:18:49,625 --> 04:18:51,125 (speaks French) 2651 04:19:36,583 --> 04:19:39,250 (Favrelière continues in French) 2652 04:20:14,917 --> 04:20:17,041 Ophuls: Oui. (speaks French) 2653 04:20:40,667 --> 04:20:42,000 (Ophuls speaks French) 2654 04:21:35,417 --> 04:21:37,583 (both speaking French) 2655 04:21:37,583 --> 04:21:38,750 (Ophuls speaks French) 2656 04:21:43,291 --> 04:21:44,417 (speaks French) 2657 04:22:00,875 --> 04:22:02,792 (Ophuls speaks French) 2658 04:22:02,792 --> 04:22:04,750 (speaks French) 2659 04:24:01,708 --> 04:24:03,417 (Ophuls speaks French) 2660 04:24:14,917 --> 04:24:16,041 (speaks French) 2661 04:24:34,417 --> 04:24:36,333 (Ophuls speaks French) 2662 04:24:36,333 --> 04:24:37,542 (interrupts in French) 2663 04:24:53,792 --> 04:24:55,834 (speaks French) 2664 04:25:16,291 --> 04:25:17,417 (speaks French) 2665 04:25:39,542 --> 04:25:41,166 (Casalis continues in French) 2666 04:26:08,583 --> 04:26:10,667 (speaking German) 2667 04:26:22,291 --> 04:26:23,375 (speaks French) 2668 04:26:38,834 --> 04:26:39,917 (Speer speaks German) 2669 04:26:56,125 --> 04:26:57,417 (Ophuls speaks German) 2670 04:26:59,250 --> 04:27:00,375 (speaking German) 2671 04:27:00,375 --> 04:27:01,458 (Speer speaks German) 2672 04:27:25,166 --> 04:27:27,375 (Ophuls speaks German) 2673 04:27:41,834 --> 04:27:42,959 (speaking German) 2674 04:27:51,000 --> 04:27:55,000 Taylor: If the Tribunal had applied the same standards to Speer 2675 04:27:55,000 --> 04:27:56,458 as they applied to Streicher, 2676 04:27:56,458 --> 04:27:58,166 he would have met the same fate. 2677 04:27:58,166 --> 04:28:01,625 Actually, the evidence of connection with serious war crimes 2678 04:28:01,625 --> 04:28:05,583 on a large scale was far stronger against Speer than against Streicher. 2679 04:28:05,583 --> 04:28:08,708 Speer was an attractive man. He was intelligent, 2680 04:28:08,708 --> 04:28:11,750 and I'm sure that this played a part in the reaction of the judges. 2681 04:28:11,750 --> 04:28:16,333 He was much the most appealing of any defendant in the dock in that trial. 2682 04:28:16,333 --> 04:28:17,959 (speaking German) 2683 04:28:24,542 --> 04:28:25,959 (chuckles) 2684 04:28:25,959 --> 04:28:27,000 (speaks French) 2685 04:28:49,041 --> 04:28:50,375 (Vaillant-Couturier speaks French) 2686 04:29:01,000 --> 04:29:02,875 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking in French) 2687 04:29:24,208 --> 04:29:26,875 (Charles Dubost speaks French) 2688 04:29:26,875 --> 04:29:27,917 (speaks French) 2689 04:29:51,166 --> 04:29:52,208 Lawrence: One moment... 2690 04:29:52,208 --> 04:29:54,083 (Charles Dubost speaks French) 2691 04:29:54,083 --> 04:29:57,291 Lawrence: When you said only 49 came back, 2692 04:29:57,291 --> 04:30:01,250 did you mean that only 49, uh, arrived at Auschwitz-- 2693 04:30:01,250 --> 04:30:04,458 (in English): No, only 49 came back to France! 2694 04:30:04,458 --> 04:30:07,208 Lawrence: Oh, God. Go on. 2695 04:30:13,250 --> 04:30:15,208 Yes? 2696 04:30:15,208 --> 04:30:16,917 (speaks French) 2697 04:30:26,125 --> 04:30:27,250 (speaks French) 2698 04:31:15,000 --> 04:31:16,041 (speaks French) 2699 04:31:55,792 --> 04:31:58,750 Lawrence: Uh, you're going too fast. Vaillant-Couturier: Sorry. 2700 04:32:01,333 --> 04:32:03,667 (Vaillant-Couturier continues in French) 2701 04:32:32,917 --> 04:32:33,959 (speaks French) 2702 04:32:57,917 --> 04:33:01,500 Lawrence: Uh, does any other of the, uh, German, uh-- 2703 04:33:01,500 --> 04:33:06,083 of the defendant's counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness? 2704 04:33:09,083 --> 04:33:11,542 (Vaillant-Couturier speaking in French) 2705 04:33:40,834 --> 04:33:44,750 ♪ ♪ 2706 04:34:00,875 --> 04:34:03,458 (crowd applauds) 2707 04:34:03,458 --> 04:34:07,000 Menuhin: The people who came to concerts at the end, after the war, 2708 04:34:07,000 --> 04:34:12,667 uh, had very little to eat and very little shelter, but music ma-- 2709 04:34:12,667 --> 04:34:15,500 meant more to them than perhaps it had ever meant before. 2710 04:34:15,500 --> 04:34:17,166 (speaking German) 2711 04:34:28,125 --> 04:34:32,333 It was easier for me than for other Jews. 2712 04:34:32,333 --> 04:34:36,542 My family had not suffered as others had. 2713 04:34:36,542 --> 04:34:41,417 If my wife or my children had been-- 2714 04:34:41,417 --> 04:34:43,625 had been destroyed, 2715 04:34:43,625 --> 04:34:45,375 I probably couldn't have done it. 2716 04:34:45,375 --> 04:34:50,792 Those who came to my concerts, came as people in need. 2717 04:34:50,792 --> 04:34:54,125 There may well have been a few Nazis among them, too, 2718 04:34:54,125 --> 04:35:00,208 but judgment is a retroactive affair, and very important it is, too. 2719 04:35:27,500 --> 04:35:30,917 Menuhin: I think that so long as people are guilty of crimes 2720 04:35:30,917 --> 04:35:34,542 and perpetrating them, judgment is essential. 2721 04:35:34,542 --> 04:35:39,208 Today, torture has become as international as anything else. 2722 04:35:39,208 --> 04:35:42,417 I mean, the means, the know-how, 2723 04:35:42,417 --> 04:35:45,625 is supplied by the United States and Russia, 2724 04:35:45,625 --> 04:35:49,583 and is practiced in Brazil and in Chile, 2725 04:35:49,583 --> 04:35:53,208 and, and we must combat universal evil, 2726 04:35:53,208 --> 04:35:59,041 which is no longer confined to borders or to systems. 2727 04:35:59,041 --> 04:36:01,375 When I speak with the Germans, 2728 04:36:01,375 --> 04:36:04,333 I feel that my role is, is not to judge. 2729 04:36:04,333 --> 04:36:06,208 I feel there must be judges. 2730 04:36:06,208 --> 04:36:07,500 There must be law. 2731 04:36:07,500 --> 04:36:11,750 Law must be enforced, and law should be universal, 2732 04:36:11,750 --> 04:36:14,750 but I am not the judge. 2733 04:36:14,750 --> 04:36:18,625 I think it's always embarrassing if the judge is someone 2734 04:36:18,625 --> 04:36:23,708 who himself doesn't suffer from the action 2735 04:36:23,708 --> 04:36:28,792 or is someone who has just won the battle. 2736 04:36:28,792 --> 04:36:33,542 I think judgment should ideally come from within the person who has committed the crime. 2737 04:36:33,542 --> 04:36:38,000 (soft violin music) 2738 04:38:17,625 --> 04:38:21,417 ♪ ♪ 2739 04:38:56,583 --> 04:39:00,125 (violin continues) 2740 04:39:13,375 --> 04:39:16,959 (music ends)